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Interviewer:Kevin Hardley needs an introduction I think but it's a great privilege to, again, sit and dialogue with him, a long time friend and a mentor figure for me in California letters and California Culture, and a greatly prolific important scholar; the author of the single handedly most ambitious reckoning of California we've ever had, Kevin's dreams theories, and multi-talented beyond that boiling down and excavation of California history and culture with books and other and discreet topics, including the one that's soon to appear on 15th and 16th century Catholicism. Interviewee:No, no. Exploration and settlement of North America by Spain, France and [???] [0:00:45.3] in England Interviewer:There you are, thank you. So, what I'd like to do is-- Interviewee:I need a better title than that. Interviewer:Kevin has been wonderful about being a presence here throughout our nearly day-and-a-half exploration of writing and writing from California particularly focused on the North. And I want to start, given his historical training and his work on the history of California. Just tell us a little bit, as you sat there, this far through the conference, what themes, we've scathed briefly back into the past, but largely, we've focused on fairly contemporary issues, what themes have come up from our panelist and our writers that echo for you historically in California? Interviewee:Well, I think, all of the things. I have been just delighted to see that reverberations of the contemporary things, most of the participants here have been a contemporary writers in their perspective as more or less contemporary, by which contemporary means for me since about 1915. And to go back to the 18th or 19th century, there's just an enormous amount of themes. For instance, one of our speakers talked about the anchorage in Hispanic culture. If you look at the Hispanic diaries coming up to California from Mexico, from around the Sonora at that point, Tubac, and Tucson, there's the same sense of expectation of hope for a better world, etcetera. I am not talking now about the missionaries, the Franciscan Missionaries, I am talking about the ordinary men and women who made that trip, for instance, under [???] [0:02:23.0] of tutelage and those who came after. So that literature is extremely important, Hispanic literature, and it is filled with the sense that the world can be a better place once we get there. The sermons of the priest, if you look at the complete collection of documents from the Bancroft, The Bancroft Library done by Bolton in the 1930s, in fact, I gave you copy, I gave you a copy, that's six frame because I had a extra series. Well you will see some very remarkable moments of symbolic expression about California. And of course, just going back to the American encounter, to think of classics like Alfred Robinson, life in California before the conquest, 1840. And even earlier, Richard Henry Dana, Two Years Before The Mast, 1840 is to come into a kind of DNA code unfolding about American expectations about California, a sense of destiny and in the case of Dana also a sense of being a long way away from Harvard yard of the East Coast. Interviewer:So I am just curious about that moment right there for you. Does that echo with the discussion we heard both today and yesterday about exiles? Interviewee:Yes, I think, but this has been emphasized very much, Robert [PH]-Hosses' explication of politic of influxes here is that there were kind of DNA codes, or assembler, early periods and that they expand, they get more intricate as time goes on. And there was a sense of exile, a sense of being a long way away in some of the early American narratives. Now if you look a little later into the 1850s, and we are not going to get into Twain yet or [PH]-Brent Harper. Just along Dilano and some of the humorous, you see a sense of, Yellow Bird, The Life and Death of Joaquin Murieta, etcetera, you see a coping with violence and unsettlement. Royce will come back to these themes in his history of California. But very dramatically, John Rollin Ridge, the Yellow Bird was his Cherokee name, his Life and Death of Joaquin Murieta is really an [PH]-archi type of California book and its sense of displacement, etcetera, on the part of the Hispanics here. And the use of [PH]-opass that provides California literature as time goes on. Wallace Stegner who certainly made his appearance dramatically in this, which is referred to four, five or six or eight times, most recent, our recent panel. Wallace Stegner says that California literature, the literature of the West take its special beginnings from 0:05:25.6-Mark Twain's ruffing it and Clarence King's mountaineering the 0:05:30.8-Sierra Nevada. Now, prior to that in terms of the 1860s as Mark Twain's reportage which has been edited and excavated, but in that innocence abroad when he left, those when he left he did not lave for the East Coast, he left for Japan. And that's another theme, that Asia Pacific theme which I will get to which comes into California rather early actually. Twain is ruffing it in the sens of the rejuvenation through nature, I know you are working on that theme yourself in the post civil war period. Twain was traumatized by the civil. He was in the confederate militia for about six weeks. There was a confrontation, a battle, small little skirmish, he was involved with that and he went out after the skirmish and saw a Yankee soldier dead there, and that decided he lost interest in the war between the states at that point. Like a lot of people from Missouri, that family was divided, his brother, Orion was the secretary to the territorial governor of Nevada, he came here, lives in Lake Tahoe then comes in Virginia City, then into San Francisco. And there is that sense of renewal of post traumatic recuperation in that book. You can fastforward to [PH]-Santiannas on Gentile tradition, George Santiago, the great philosopher speaking to Berkeley in 1910, and in fact, I am redacting his statement in a fact saying that, You Californian's are the most technologically developed, in many cases, of all the populations of the United Sates. You take nature as your symbol. That dialogue between nature and technology that I think enters in very early, something that-- no sorry, exclusively California, nothing, or anything that I have come across is exclusively Californian, except maybe the Blue Jay, but even there, there are examples elsewhere. But this idea of intensification of technology and intensification of nature perception, the two of them come in together, the gold rush beginning and technology, a violation of nature and yet nature's bounty as well, so the king is very powerful on this. Then you have the whole literature of social dystopianism when California fails. We know the 1870s, there is an epidemic, what we call today Nervous Breakdown. Actually my terminology is out of date, nervous breakdown is kind of the 1940s technology. But there is a whole kind of runaway of breaking down, and there is excessive willingness to sort of put people away into mental asylums who today we would consider just eccentric. In the 1870s, you have that sense of that experiment has gone wrong. It begins with Henry George's of San Francisco Land and Land Policy 1871 culminating in his magnificent progress in poverty 1879, a magnificent book. Its characteristic of the riots, the Sand-lots riots in San Francisco. The hanging of some 14 to 15, the number gets revised up, 1871, higher even, lynching of the Chinese in Los Angeles, and the anti-Chinese riots here. The third vigilante committee being activated in 1876, and two United States Naval gun boats being posted off ashore of San Francisco because they are afraid of urban riots, they are upsetting. These were all served within the same year, the founding of the first international, in Europe, etcetera. This later chronicle by Lord Bryce in his American commonwealth because of the Left Coast, this reel-- angry left-wing-right-wing confrontation in the mid 1870s which has literal expression. And then the resolution of the second constitutional convention. I really feel that we have to look and give a-- pay a lot of attention to poetry and fiction as well. Let's go back earlier. Yesterday we had Armistead, Armistead Maupin, and the tremendous power he had with somebody, the people who were speaking to him how much his novel augment to him. When you think of Charles [PH]-Warnstatord for instance, who is one of the founders of the Golden Gate [???] [0:10:14.1], produced that beautiful book of poetry, The Outcroppings, it was about 1861 or so. Now in the 19th century, you did not have the gay identity. Human sexuality as still as the case represents a band, a band. And people who are at various points in that band of human sexuality. So [PH]-Statord would not declare himself as a member of a group or persecuted minority, but that's what he was of course and he had this extraordinary courier as we know from his autobiography at troubled heart, etcetera as he ward with his very profound Catholicism and his homosexual, we would call today gay identity or homosexual identity, but he does not use that vocabulary, it is just not there in the 19th century. So you have that whole thing. It's not just the 1970s that the city begins, that San Francisco begins to speak to gay Americans. It goes way back to one of the founding of poets. Of course Statord went down to the South Pacific and brought Stevenson down to South Pacific, so the opening up of that South Pacific relationship which is reinforced by the direct shipping lines to Yokohama for the 1860s. They have been starting in our decade, the 1880s, direct contact with Australia. So Statord was very important, [PH]-Anna Cobricks is very important. She was brought over after her parents died of 0:11:53.6 and a wagon train coming over. She was brought by Jim Bridgeman, brought her over on the, the mountain man, an African-American. I think that's a marvelous, real symbol, real symbolic of this African-American mountain man bring this little orphan from a wagon train over into California, she becomes then the great poet lord of the 1860s and 70s of California. Interviewer:Tell us about your own encounter, even as a very young man with California writers, and then I want to take you up through, you mentioned the attraction to a certain kind of protestant vision for America which put you right at the foot of Allen Heimer, I think, your graduate study at Harvard in American civilization. So take us back a little bit through your own moments of encounter in California writing. Interviewee:I am strictly San Francisco, I aspire to being a high provincial, I am certainly a provincial, maybe a high [PH]-perventual in Roy's term. My great grand father came in 1852 as a 12 year old, his 19-year-old sister from [PH]-Rosecoron, Ireland, she was attached to a family that she was working for here. My other grand father came from, who was a Yankee Protestants, they came from Rhode Island the early 1870s, he was a pharmacist, as was his son, my grand father, and was one of my cousins today; so pharmacy runs in the family. And we belong to this isolated, dramatically isolated San Francisco culture. I did not hear that too much about urbanism. Do not forget San Francisco was only existed as an American in 1847. It was by 1870s, 10th largest city in the United States and there is nothing in between, there is no Denver, you have to wait until Chicago. Well, 1870, Chicago just burned down but it's just going to come back again, that is a long way away. There is no Seattle, Los Angeles 1870, maybe I will guess 4500 people, 4,500, or was that too many-- Interviewer:Yeah, somewhere between 5 and 10, small, small. Interviewee:Okay, good. I got to go back and read White Wash to Dobbe and get my numbers of it, that is Bill's book. San Francisco always had a high sense of self regard, it is something that does not exist until 1847. It is by 1855, sponsoring the 0:14:22.3 of San Francisco at 850-page history of itself. I mean, come on, that is a long time before 0:14:29.0-Herb Kane, but it is certainly in the spirit of Herb Kane, it is certainly in the spirit of Herb Kane. So I came from that particular culture. So the world was to me as a boy growing up in San Francisco, the world was intensely urban and a newspaper route downtown. And I did not learn from writers, I learn from the drama of the downtown. I learned from the wonderful department stories where I delivered newspaper. I am talking now 9, 10, 11 or 12 years old. And I learn from the [PH]-Filand building. I learned from just a sheer drama of the city. If it were newspaper, if it were writers, if it were the newspaper writers that I read. So if my background sounds narrow to you geographically, it is. It was only later in life that I discovered the full grandeur of California, and sense of geographically and etcetera, I did not discover Los Angeles until I became editor for New West Magazine in the 1970s and begin to open up my semi provincial sensibility to a much broader, that's one of my first volume, America's-- the California dream is a little biased towards Northern California. However, what's my delight in later years of Scholar by the name of Bill Deverell begin to write about all the things in Southern California that I should have written about anyway earlier. So you picked up that same time period in Southern California. Interviewer:So do you read California or Northern California fiction as a scholar and that reading of fiction stops at a certain point, in other words, do you still read California fiction recreational? Interviewee:Well, I am not as up to date. I have read of Wallace Stegner's novel for instance, his suburban novels, etcetera. And I have got about six or eight titles now from this conference that I will be reading. But I think I have read pretty consistently the normal thing. So I mean, Steinbeck and back in the earlier periods, the sort of 1819-1920 period, I have read exhaustively, exhaustively in that period because at that point, with California, there's only 3 million people and no internet. Mrs. Olman talked a little bit about the other culture inside of that provide-- but you look back to that period, it was golden age of writing and painting, those were the modalities through which California was defining itself equal to politics, equal to economic development. Interviewer:So let us talk about those modalities in yourself. You have been a journalist, you are obviously in a story-- Interviewee:About a million and a half words in print in journalism, yes-- Interviewer:Yes, you have been-- journalist and a historian. We also have heard-- Interviewee:Thank you for calling me historian. I would like to think of myself as a writer who writes on history occasionally. But I think a historian is-- well see if history, if time will let me be a historian. Interviewer:Well, let time do its thing but I think we can stipulate that you are a historian for this conversation. But how about poet? We have talked about poetry, you have had some wonderful readings of poetry, we have taken the pulse of a particular vision of California landscapes through the poets. Any of that on personal background in your life? Interviewee:You mean writing poetry? No, no. I am sort of poetic but I am not a poet. I guess, practically speaking, my definition of poetry is like Jeremy [PH]-Benson's as pros who does not reach the folds other side of the page but I certainly love poetry. I love its extraordinary privacy, I love its ability to recreate the world anew. That is why I was thrilled to have so much good discussion on poetry. Interviewer:Would you say that given the canvas of both these discussion and what we've heard before, the reckoning with California as a landscape of hope if maybe disappointment as a landscape of remarkable and natural assets. Is the story one more of continuity grappling with very similar themes through time so that your line all rise to debate on your line between Sneider to the National Park. If you put John [PH]-Muron that line, you can draw it. So is it more of a story of continuity or other raptures? Interviewee:This can actually draw with Roosevelt and [PH]-Taft's visit to come here. Interviewer:So is the story more of continuity of reckoning with this place and all that's, its lane with in terms of expectation or is it one that is more better understood by way of rapture, the second world war, violence, discriminatory behaviors, oppression, subjugation, what was the larger take? Interviewee:Well, they are both true, they are both true. We begin our discussion saying Euthopia or dystopia. 0:19:36.6 but also freezing to death and reverting to cannibalism of the 0:19:41.2-Donor party or being begged to life and . at the [PH[-Manly party. That was not the Manly party, what party was it> Manly wrote the-- Interviewer:0:19:46.5-The Jay Hawk Interviewee:The Jay Hawk's party, yes. So I think both are true, both are true. What my mind is going now, and this is where I am struggling, that is why I have stopped in 63, the last time I understood it. I have a feeling that I understood in the 19th century, California as an American place, for better or for worse. I had to catch up with the Californian war, the demonic aspect for instance. I never wrote a chapter about the militia campaign against the Native Americans the 1850s and 60s. Why did I not do that? The sensibility was not there. The sensibility was the heightened experience of [PH]-Amciv, that was the weakest of the Amciv movement. The younger historian, your age group comes in and says, What about this, what about that? So, the what-about-this and what-about-that I had to absorb all of that and I think I have absorbed it now. I think my later books expressed it better Unamuno's tragic sense of life and the American experiment. Now, I am thinking [PH]-Acumenopolist, transPacific, the global culture. No sooner do you get a grip on this. You say, when do the global culture begin? Well, then all of a sudden, as you are being pushed back to the 19th century as well. Jim Holiday's book, on the Gold Rush, the world rushed in. The influence of the God Rush on the national culture. They are a beautiful new book down the relationship between Australia and California in terms of irrigation technology, etcetera, and suburban development, architectural development, domestic architecture. Interviewer:I am going to ask Kevin one or two more questions, but while I do so, if you have questions, which I am sure many of you do, please start and come over here to line up with this microphone, that is where we take question so that they get captured by film. So if you have question for Kevin, we are going to wrap up here in a second, please feel free to come on up to the microphone. Interviewee:Can I mention a few of my favorite Californians? Interviewer:No. Of course. Interviewee:Kevin, who are some of your favorite Californians? Well, someone I fall in love with overtime Isadora Duncan, I love Isadora Duncan, her autobiography is magnificent and I thought it was Vanessa Redgrave who played her in the film, just a beautiful She was born here, of course, in San Francisco, San Francisco Irish. So there is a affinity there. Her father is vice president later the Hibernia Bank, my family bank, we do not know them, we just bank there. And so she came out of a culture I understood totally and then she becomes something else, a magnificent creature. And same thing also, I love [PH]-Kath Aderson, adventure of a novelist. When Kath Adwerson, she was born in the 1850s, during the 60s in Sacramento, when her father gave dinner parties, a very successful family, knowing on Yankee family, the Franklins, the Horns rather, and there were the peers with the Franklin geology, the [???] [0:22:52.3] horn. Her father would put her up on the dinner table, these stag dinners and she would be about seven or eight, and when the soup was served and she ran around kicking the bowls of soup in the laps of the guest. Now, they thought that was hilarious, she thought that was fun. Well, that is going to give her a sort of sense of what she wants to do with her life, etcetera, when she goes. And Mary Austin, I think someone mentioned the Line of Little Rain-- Interviewer:No. I think it was Will. Interviewee:It was Will who mentioned that line of Little Rain, Mary Austin 1903. Her sense of the desert, the landscape there. So some of these people I read. Joyce Royce became very fond of. Joyce Royce. So I am very fond of Henry George in the 19th century where you see figures that you feel are founders. Interviewer:I am just curious about Royce and George, both those figures, at the end of the day, California became a disappointment to them, no? Interviewee:Well, George went back to New York, he ran for mayor of New York, almost made it. That is interesting we said about Royce, Yes or no [???] [0:24:06.0] would know. Interviewer:[PH]-Catales. Interviewee:[???] [0:24:13.9] where I think Royce had, that ambivalence from which comes many creative results. Interviewer:So have you ever felt an exile here? Interviewee:Exile, where? Interviewer:In California. Interviewee:No, no. This is the center of the universe. Interviewer:And 0:24:33.6-nativity not withstanding you are on the faculty as a university professor at USC. You know a great deal about Southern California, yeah, you keep a home up here. Where are you from? Interviewee:I am from California. I am from the city called California. Do not forget for 10 years I am a state librarian. I administered a half-a-billion-dollar construction fund, the devoter's pass generously in the mid 1990s. I administered some $30 million a year for library programs. You got to be scrupulous, fair. We build libraries from 0:25:10.4-Delnorth to Calexico. I mean, we were very fair. I really see the California is a totality. I think it was Mrs. Olman who said, Mrs. Olman said that the California is a concept. I was talking to [PH]-Anthea Artbrick at lunch and I said if the pilgrim fathers had landed in Santa Monica bay rather than Massachusetts bay, we would had about 13 states here. Because after all, California runs from main to Georgia. So the concept of the state is an extraordinary global creation. We are truly a nation state. We have created an empire on the Pacific which, again, to repeat myself, we had a normal colonial experience from Anglo America, we would have been carved up in much different ways. So I tried to live up in the entire state all the time. Now being a fourth generation San Franciscan, I grew up here, I feel that, you know, I mean, I can go swimming at the Olympic Club and go get a beer after and see guys I was in the 8th grade with. Okay. So it's like being a Bostonian, or it's like being, it's very different from this experience of recent arrival which is we talked about, or we talked about this morning, their experience coming to California. There's good news about that and there's bad news. I always write in my book when I autograph well I came to California when I was 25 or something. I always write Well the best Californians are Californians by choice. I have to be born here but I happened to be reborn in California. Serving two years as an army officer in Germany, and serving at Harvard for Ph.D and a senior tutor at Harvard at Eliot House. I was reborn into the state from there. So I had [PH]-quasi exilic experience. But I never would want to be any place else but California. Now in terms of whether that would be living in Los Angeles or San Francisco, San Francisco is much more integrated into my whatever labyrinth my [PH]-psyche is. Interviewer:Alright, well, I want to thank you for both this afternoon, and obviously for your life's work. I at the risk of being proven wrong in 50 years or so. I do not think anyone will take on the task the way you have take it on. It is really a remarkable prodigious amount of work and we have you to thank for helping us understand this place. We have you also to thank for helping us understand the dialogue between North and South which is in fact what this entire conference and its twin in February were all about. So please join me, any last word? Interviewee:Just one thing Bill. You know, you could do a kind of almost a polar game. You can say, semi [???] [0:28:03.7] Northern California, Southern California. You could say significantly Catholic and Jewish, you could Jewish and Protestant 19th Century, giants. You could say wooden water 0:28:22.3 the cactus, you go back and forth, back and forth. And you have talked the Pacific, one last time. Emman Wilson in the Boys in the Backroom says that the Pacific--