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Moderate Islam: Western Ally or Western Myth?

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Lary9 Avatar
Posted: 06.04.10, 10:59 AM
You missed Wafa's central point, probably owing to her heavy accent. She was saying that there is no moderate Islam, period. That no amount of academic analysis and dialogue concerning Islam can override the firsthand subjective expereience of living within it [in her case as a woman]. And she claims that this real face of Islam is never ever moderate in the sense we understand the word.
Lary9 Avatar
Posted: 06.04.10, 10:39 AM
"I must give Muslims credit - they will whip that azz if you make fun of their Prophet and religion." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately they don't stop at simply 'whipping that azz' but frequently commit murder in the name of Islam. I give no credit for that. It is not justifiable. It is schoolyard bullying.
Ganesha Avatar
Posted: 06.01.10, 06:26 PM
Quote: Originally Posted by Mark Sullivan Kumasi, I am a little more optimistic than you are. I believe that in the orthodox Islamic societies - Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Pakistan - the really medieval, backward countries where the madrassa is the primary means of educating their children (male children only) - there is no hope. In the Muslim majority countries with modern infrastructure and a pipeline to the modern world - Iran - the younger generations, of which these societies are largely composed demographically, see a better, more peaceful, more prosperous and mostly, more free, world out there that they have a taste for. Change can come in these places through revolution. If a modern Islamic state should fall from within, the result would be transformational. The world would then be able to keep the backward, violent propensities of the least civilized Muslim nations isolated within their own borders. If they wish to live that way, they are free to do so. If we choose not to live that way, we have a right to defend ourselves on the battlefield of ideas. There is no hope in any Muslim country. Even in the most progressive and so called democratic Muslim countries like Turkey and Malaysia, there is no freedom of religion. Even in "secular" Turkey, Islam is very tightly woven in the social and intellectual life. Only way a Muslim country can be transformed if Islam is separated from politics, economics and education - chances of this happening are very slim. However, there is one way a Muslim country can be transformed - if women are educated and enjoy some sort of political and social rights, if not complete equality. This also will not transpire at least for few decades. Real progress in the West was achieved after women got the vote and discrimination against them was eliminated at least legislatively - if not in practice. In all Muslim countries, the discrimination against women and non-Muslims is institutionalized and legal. In the last 50 or 60 years, Muslim countries have regressed while the rest of the world has progressed. Today there is less freedom of religion and women have fewer rights in Muslim countries than was the case in 1950's 60's and 70's - Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Malaysia, Pakistan and Turkey are prime examples.
Ascertain_The_Truth Avatar
Posted: 05.27.10, 07:09 AM
In the presidency of the United States, we need a man like Muhamamd the Prophet, peace be on him, to fulfill the promise of America. America has made a very fine and great promise of justice, freedom and equal opportunity to all citizens. That's a great promise. But in order to realize that kind of promise you have to be willing to look at wrong in South Africa the same way you look at-wrong in other parts of the world. You must look at wrong in the black community just as you would in the white community and vice versa. You have to be just as sensitive to the need of one citizen as to the other: not only in domestic quarters, but also in international quarters. Only then will you be right in your heart and be able to defend the great idea of American democracy. Most American citizens are not aware that our country has not defended what it believes in: not even at home, unless it was forced to do so. And even then, it did it deceitfully for the most part. The international world is waiting on our country to defend its idea of democracy in the international world. The leaders of our country have allowed themselves to become partners of people committed to an idea that is in direct opposition to the great idea of American democracy. They quickly do this for more material acquisition and dominance over the mind and spirit of man, globally. They will do every kind of devilish thing. You may feel too small and too weak to join the opposition -and fight these evil influences at home and abroad but I am not, and I am not alone. There are men and women of my color and outside of my color, of my religion and outside of my religion, who have fought these influences long before I was born. Many of them are still here and I am with them and they are with me. We are one in our fight against the evil that seeks to globalize itself and take over man's spirit and deny him the great future that God intended for him. Don't think we are alone: we're not alone. If I am killed and buried tomorrow, more non-Muslims would attend my funeral than Muslims. Because they know that my concerns are bigger than the small Muslim community of America. Most of my difficulties with you have been because I was too big; I had to go outside of your confines. If you really understood the Qur'an you would know that the Qur'an makes you universal. It makes you a defender of the highest and most precious ideas and principles of man. Therefore you can't be pushed aside into a narrow corner. "Oh, those are Black Muslims. Oh, he's a Black Muslim," or "he's a Muslim only." I'm not a Muslim only: I am a Muslim and I am a brother to every man and a defender of justice. And that's what makes this religion so dangerous. They know that the African-American man has to hypnotize himself to stay in the church, and that if he ever believed that Al-Islam was really a universally dignified religion he would readily take off his Christian robe and jump right into Al-Islam, the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet all the way. They know that. They know what happened in Africa. Ethiopia was once a Christian stronghold on that continent. But today the people in Ethiopia are not only Christians, there are also large numbers of Muslims. Wherever Christianity has been in Africa, today Muslims are there. Al-Islam didn't spread among Animist who have these so-called `primitive' religions, as much as it did among Christians of Africa. Al-Islam was accepted by the Christians of Africa. This is why they distort and misrepresent this religion.
Ascertain_The_Truth Avatar
Posted: 05.27.10, 07:08 AM
No student of history can say that Muhammad came to wipe out Christianity and Judaism. God missioned him to rise up and deal with those people and those forces that threatened to wipe out the life that God intended for man on this earth. As his works grew they became more and more jealous of him. So the jealous ones, Christians, Jews and heathens got together, conspired secretly and attacked him openly and hired their demons to stamp out his works as quick as they possibly could. But as Allah says in our Holy Book, it is useless that they desire to put out the light of Al-Islam. God will perfect His light, though they hate it. Instead of stamping out his works his followers grew; his mission grew; faster than any similar mission in the history of man. Despite the presence of Communism and foreign ideology and the power of the Western world to fascinate and capture the minds of citizens of countries, the Muslim citizenry is still Muslim. We are not losing our citizens to Communism and other ideologies, particularly Communism. On the contrary, some of the bravest souls fighting Communism are Muslims. The Muslims of Afghanistan are fighting with antiquated weapons that hardly work. Many of the weapons are rusty and so old you can hardly use them but they have been able to hold their own against Russia's army. They've been fighting for years against the communist occupation of their land, Afghanistan. Another thing that the enemies of Al-Islam don't want you to know is that this religion has people in it who have taken up the heavy mission to promote civilization and justice; the Will of God on this earth. They want us to think that only western people have come into such a great mission. Before the western man could wear a civilized pair of pants or a civilized dress, Prophet Muhammad had already preached civilization and brought civilization to the most uncivilized and darkest quarter of the Old World, the peninsula of Arabia, where people celebrated their religion by going around naked in their religious celebration. Where girls were not wanted because men were needed to plow the land or defend the tribe. Too many girls were an embarrassment to a man and his family so they took the girl child out and buried her alive. God sent the revelation to Muhammad, "For what crime was she killed, and buried alive?" They don't want us to know that our religion has as its purpose and its aim on this earth the highest and noblest mission for human beings. Freedom, civilization, education, the highest standards for society, that's our religion. They would want us to believe that only the West has come into such a mission. Europe was in the dark and given to superstition and oppression of the human intellect; denying their females the opportunity to get an education. Europe was enslaving its females, treating them as property or slaves. Don't think that the Whiteman's woman has always been emancipated. Her emancipation came, I think, just a little after ours. When that situation existed in the western world higher education in every sense had already been given in the Muslim society. It was an obligation of the Muslim state to see that every male and female born in that society was educated. The right of woman to go into business, to speak out in public, to protest the behavior of her government or behavior of her government leaders, in the public, had already been established. Richard Allen, in his book, "Imperialism and Nationalism in the Fertile Crescent," tells of the higher civilization demonstrated in the higher life of the Muslims when they met the Crusaders in battle. He noted that the Muslim soldier who carried the same heavy burden of war that the Christian soldier carried found time to bathe, shave and wear clean clothes. "We are ashamed of our Christian soldiers who were unshaved, filthy, and looking like dirty wild stinking savages," he said. You want to make a comparison? Let's make a comparison. Look at us today! America has great material wealth, frightening military power, but look at the shameful state of American family life. Look how low America's family life has fallen. Just as the Muslim towered above the Western people in those days, in morals, decency, self-respect and obedience to a moral code, likewise today, the Muslims tower above most of the people in Western society. This is the truth they don't want you to know. They say, "Oh that religion impressed the criminals and the convicts. They were able to convert more convicts in prison than the preachers were able to convert to Christianity." But the merit of Al-Islam is not that it appeals to some man locked up behind the bars. No. The merit of Al-Islam is that it brought civilization to the world. When Europe was asleep, when the white man of the West was asleep, when they were sleeping in savagery, it was our religion that woke the world up and said man is not created to be dead, in ignorance and immorality. Rise to your mission man, you were made Khalifa of the earth. It was our religion that did that. The only reason why the West succeeded in gaining global dominance over our religion is that the West was willing to stoop lower than the Muslims to accomplish that. Muslims would not sell out their virtues or their morals or their faith in morals. We will not sacrifice everything just to dominate the world! The great advances made by Europe and America in conquering the world, has been advances that only a devil can stomach. Like it or not, I'm not here to make you like me. Nothing but an avowed devil can stomach what was done to advance the global dominance of the Western man on this earth. We only have to look at what was done to keep us down. And what is being done now? At the time when America should fulfill her promise of justice to all people, the moral obligation got too heavy on this country. So what did its leaders do? They folded up their hands and said, 'Let the criminals take over. We can't go any further with this. We won't do it ourselves but let us fold our arms and turn our heads and let the criminals take over.' They have given the American citizen over into the hands of criminals. We live in a prison situation right in our own homes and our own neighborhoods. Our children have been taken away from us by the criminals. The criminals have lured them away from respect for us. They have lured them away from obedience to us. They have lured them away from obeying God and from obeying parents. So the great ones in the West have folded their hands and said to the criminals, `now you take over.'
Ascertain_The_Truth Avatar
Posted: 05.27.10, 07:07 AM
Knowing what we have to deal with shouldn't make us weaker in our commitment to be Muslims and to propagate our life. It should make us stronger. There are some strong among us, but they are so few. So few. We have to bring the truth to the people and tell them that this religion is not an unpopular religion. There is a quiet work going on; it has been going on all the time, to make the American people and the people of the world think that our religion is an unpopular religion. They tried hard until I pushed the truth to the forefront, on this country. With the help of God, it was my own efforts that pushed the truth to the forefront here in this country, that this religion is not the religion of Black nationalists of America, that this is a religion of human beings all over the world. This is not a Black religion; this is a religion for all colors. They had contained the productive good in the works of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad so that it wouldn't spread and reach the many lives of our people. But they had also projected the Nation of Islam in such a way the American people would think that Muslims were Black people recently converted from crime life. You have to understand the devilishment of the American people. Those hidden devils in the system of life we call America. This is not a religion of a special race, or class of Black people; this is a religion for all people on this earth. Its appeal is not limited to ex-convicts or poor Blacks disappointed with Christianity. Its appeal has gone out to all people, classes and ranks. Doctors, lawyers, government leaders, statesmen, rulers and scientists, embraced this religion hundred of years ago — a thousand years ago — and they embrace it today. The people of Asia, Africa, the Pacific Islands and the Philippines, have embraced Al-Islam. The membership of Muslims is growing fast in Spain, Germany, England and other parts of Europe. In Japan, Al-Islam is spreading fast; more than 50 percent of the people on the continent of Africa, our native homeland, are Muslims. Al-Islam is the most popular religion on the continent of Africa. And the Muslims there are not people from criminal backgrounds but rather the highest people in the society of those countries. This is truth that our enemies hate to hear. We have to come out as citizens of this country. Our sacrifice and contribution to this country goes back as far as it does for any other ethnic group, whether they come from England, Spain, Germany, Yugoslavia, Arabia, Cuba or from Haiti; no matter where they came from, our roots go back as far as theirs, or farther. We are the native people of this country. Our citizenship didn't need any government legislation. And it's embarrassing to know that we had to have a Civil Rights movement to get citizenship. It's embarrassing to know that. So who is best qualified to tell the truth about Al-Islam? It is us. We are the best qualified to tell the truth about our religion. The immigrants might fear deportation. They have a cause to fear greater than ours. We are in a better situation to defend our right to this religion, which has its right on the law books. So we now have to tell the truth, and make sure that this religion gets the right presentation. We are Muslims, and I speak for myself and the sincere Muslims. We have accepted this religion for eternity. We didn't accept this religion as a fad. It's not a passing thing for us. I have had enough time in my life to seriously think about and weigh the merits of this religion. And I'm not a fool. I haven't stopped seeking knowledge or searching for knowledge and I can read in about three languages. I have had plenty of time to read books on other religions. I did a thorough study of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. I wasn't satisfied with one complete reading, I did another. There's nothing you can tell me new about the Bible, if you're an African-American Christian. And I doubt if the Pope can tell me something new about it. Not only that, but I have some of the best books put out by scholars of Judaism. I have read and studied them. I wanted to be in a position to know the strength of my religion and be in a position to really be confident in promoting my product, Al-Islam. I'm the kind of man who will put down the weaker product and pick up a better product if I find it, but in my search to find which was the better product, I never thought, not once, to put down the Qur'an, Al-Islam or Muhammad, the universal prophet, peace be upon him, what happened to me was more faith and determination to hold on to Al-Islam and promote that because it's the best product! And if anyone in his or her decent, moral, intelligent mind would study our religion and study the other religions, his or her choice will be Al-Islam! Our God asks in our Holy Book, the Qur'an, who would make a free choice and choose a religion other than Al-Islam, but he who wants to make himself foolish. Don't expect the national networks — ABC, NBC or CBS to help us. They are praying and are in uninterrupted meditation, that we don't be successful. We have to understand that our religion made a kind gesture toward Christianity and even towards Judaism, and that the hand of friendship was knocked back very rudely. Our Prophet, peace and the blessings be upon him, in establishing the first independent Muslim community or society in Medina, wrote into the charter protection of the rights of the Christians, Jews and Sabians. The Sabians were another legitimate religious group, existing in those days, to practice their religion without persecution or anyone troubling them. It is written into the Qur'an that has been preserved until today, that no church would be harmed, and that Muslims are obligated to defend the sacred houses of Christians and the Jews against any heathen or low-life person who would come against the religious establishments. Even before the independence of the Muslim community in Medina, the Prophet looked toward the Christian government of Ethiopia. He sent his persecuted followers there to find a haven or an asylum for the new community of Muslims. The Prophet's followers went to Ethiopia and they spoke to the leader, the Negus of Ethiopia, who was called the Habashee in those days. And the Negus granted them permission to live there under his protection. He was so impressed with the story of the advent of their religion and the mission of Muhammad, Peace be upon him, and the Muslim's version of the story of Jesus Christ (peace be on him and his mother), that the Muslims became dear to him; he took them to heart. They lived there in peace, protected from the heathens who pursued them. The Prophet had sent the Muslims to that Christian country because of his knowledge of its sincerity and its commitment to justice.
Ascertain_The_Truth Avatar
Posted: 05.27.10, 06:59 AM
The words of our Prophet, peace and the blessings be upon him, who said, answering a question for one who was seeking to be advised, as to what the Prophet could give him that no one else could give him. The Prophet in his reply to him, said: "Say, I have faith in Allah, and thereafter be upright." In order that Muslims not be victims of the lies told about us, it is necessary for us to meet in great numbers, in many places where we reside in the United States, to hear someone who is sincere and strong enough to tell the truth about our religion. We have many claiming to be leaders, in this religion but we have very few with the courage to tell the truth about this religion. Too many in the leadership that presents themselves as Muslim leaders are really impostors, working for the enemies of this religion. -- If we sincerely believe in the Qur'an, our Holy Book, which is a universal book, it's not the book just for us in America, it's the book for all of us throughout the world. It wasn't produced by our efforts here in America, it was a thousand years old when we were brought to America. If the sincere and the strong among the Muslims will not assert themselves to represent this religion as it should be represented, then we have nothing. We must understand that we are a very small minority religious group in America. We must understand that we belong to a religion that had enemies from the very first day of its pronouncement on this earth. Our Prophet, peace and the blessings be on him, was a native son of Mecca, on the peninsula now called Saudi Arabia. He was also a son of the most respected tribes of the Arabs called Quraish. But that did not prevent him from having enemies. When he began to preach what Allah had revealed to him, as a last message for all the world, he very soon found strong, very avowed enemies, from among his own relatives. Two of his worst enemies were his uncles, Abu Lahab, and Abu Jahl. The people he found himself among, had known him to be honest, and honorable. They called him "The Trustworthy One" — El-Amin. However the same people who had called him the trustworthy one, who had deposited their valuables with him as though he was a bank; that same man that they so highly regarded, became the greatest trouble for them, because they were not willing to say "I have belief in God, and I choose to be upright." If I have a problem with people today, it is because I follow the tradition of that great man, Muhammad, the Universal Prophet. And there will be people today that won't like me, because I say, believe first in God and thereafter be upright. But that doesn't bother me — it doesn't bother me at all. In fact it makes me happy to know that God has blessed me to be a trouble in the midst of disbelievers. It is a blessing to be trouble in the midst of disbelievers. They should be troubled. We have to be aware that we are a small minority in America, the majority of the people belong to another religion, and that the same foes, the same enemies of Islam, the same enemies of the Prophet, and here today and are as determined today as they were then to deny this religion a life and a presence on this earth. We have to be as committed to this mission, as strong in our position and as willing to sacrifice our time, our money, and even our life if we must, for this religion, if we are truly Muslims. I thank Allah that the situation is not as difficult for us today as it was for our Prophet and his companions. We live in a time and among a people who claim to be civilized, democratic, and liberal; they even claim to accept our religion as a legitimate religion that should not be persecuted but should be welcomed in the homeland of man. A religion that President Madison and other presidents of the United States have given words of recognition for; former President, Jimmy Carter publicly paid tribute to Al-Islam. But you must understand that even though this country is committed to respect the great established religions, the situation for us as religious people, as Muslims, is no different than the situation for the American Indian, or for any other minorities in this country, who have their rights protected in law, but their rights taken away from them by un-Godly, not only in private, but in government quarters. They are working hard to deny this religion its life and presence and future on this earth. If I had a wife that men were jealous of, or jealous of me because of her, a wife that other men wanted, it would make me appreciate her even more, as long as she wasn't being affected. If I had a wife, that people were attacking or working secretly to discredit, and I knew myself that she was a fine wife, a good wife, a treasure to be valued; it would make me all the much more committed to that wife. It would make me stronger in my love for her, and stronger in my determination to stick by her. Likewise I truly believe that this religious community life is of value to us, and there are devilish people working quietly and secretly all the time to hurt and discredit the Muslim community; to weaken our admiration for the Muslim community, to make us fear to put our faith in the future of the Muslim community. They are working hard day and night. But I thank Allah that this kind of situation is not as bad for us as it was for our Prophet Muhammad, peace and the blessings be upon him and his companions, may God be pleased with them. We are in a situation now in America, where it is against the law to do those things that the heathens did against Muhammad. It is against the law; they cannot openly come out against Al-Islam in America today as the enemies came out against Al-Islam in the day of our Prophet, peace and the blessings be on him. They can't do it, because it's against the laws in this country. But that doesn't mean that they are not as decided and not as bent upon doing it. They are just as decided and bent upon hurting this religion as those enemies were back then but the time and the law are against them, so they have to meet in secret, behind closed doors. They say, "We are not going to give that religion a chance; make sure you've got somebody to watch every true believer and let us know when any is getting serious about his religion, so we can plan against them."
blueberryredwood Avatar
Posted: 05.09.10, 09:08 AM
Actions speak louder than words. The Hadith, which are based upon Muhammad's actions, demonstrate this. Muhammad's disciples offensively and unjustly invaded, massacred, enslaved and hegemonized: Armenia, Georgia, Caucasian Albania, Persia, parts of the western fringe of India, the Copts, parts of Greek land in the Byzantine Empire, the Berbers and the Assyrians. Muslim propagandists lie about the history of their own religion, and you can see that at the web's best collection of scholarly, academic sources on Islam: "Islam, Christianity & Civilization" Muslims continued their wars of offensive conquest ever-after. Jesus, nor his disciples, nor their disciples for the first 300 years of Christianity ever attacked, massacred or hegemonized anyone. Come to think of it, neither did any of the early founders of any other major world religion. Only the founders of Islam spread their religion violently. Actions speak louder than words, and there's no way for any modern Muslim, no matter how peace-minded or liberal-minded or equality-minded, to get around the examples of behavior that were set by the very men who personally knew Muhammad and were personally instructed by Muhammad in the (violent) ways of Islam.
polkadot Avatar
Posted: 03.15.10, 12:54 PM
Islam, like cancer, has the sole purpose of making more of itself. It will kill our civilization unless it is cut, poisoned, and radiated into remission. We have to resist Islamic imperialism, Islamic invasion of the West, and Islamic genocide of 300 million (and counting) kafirs. We will never submit to Islam. We will fight on the beaches, we will fight on the landing grounds, we will fight in the fields and in the streets, we will fight in the hills; we will never submit. ___________________________ About 300 million kafirs have been killed by global jihad: 120 million Africans 90 million Christians 80 million Hindus 10 million Buddhists The Black Death was the result of Muslim biological warfare attack. It killed about 30 million Christians. sources:
Vanraj Avatar
Posted: 02.20.10, 01:58 AM
The "holy" book of islam contains a lot of original and good stuff. Unfortunately what is good there is not very original and what is original is not good at all. As some irreverent wit has suggested that the Q U R A N is just an acronym. Q uestionable U tterings of a R abid A rab N utcase