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MODERATOR: We are going to bring you in as often and as quickly as we can. I would like to begin by getting an overview of the issue from each of our panelists on the maritime security challenges, the global challenges that we face, how you see them, how you see the threats and how you see the response to those threats. We'll begin with you minister MacKay. THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: Before I make any remarks I would like to go high tech and just roll a bit of video that is broadcast from the HMCS Fredrickson, commander Steve Liddell and 200 plus Canadian sailors who are transiting the Suez, have transited the Suez who are south bound in the Red Sea toward the horn of Africa and are taking part in NATO task force anti?counter piracy exercises that are going on there as part of the broader effort. Just to put it in a bit of context before we start the discussions. So if we could roll that tape. SPEAKER: VIDEO What I would like to share with you today is a few things about my ship's company and what they firmly believe representing Canada and abroad. First we believe that they are in this part of the world because they are doing something that's important to Canada. There are few better ways to indicate a resolve for a country to show what they need to do like dispatching a war ship. And indeed so many countries have done that over the water here. Many of my sailors have been here before, several times already and since 1991 in the first gulf war we deployed individual frigates, [INAUDIBLE] and Canada contributes to this international effort at sea and we often lead it as well. Second we also understand we are here because navies give governments options. Last year [INAUDIBLE] of Quebec was deployed with the NATO task group when the request came in to world food program to offer escort to humanitarian [INAUDIBLE]. If she hadn't been there at the time the request might not have been able to be in action, so that was a great opportunity for foreign deployed ships to be able to act on governments requests. Similarly you can see the [INAUDIBLE] she was with the NATO task group earlier this year when she was dispatched to the horn of Africa region, the very place we are going to be operating in the next few months. Third we also know we are here not just to counter piracy terrorism more broadly it is all about making sure the worlds oceans are free for all of us to use because an unregulated maritime environment is a threat to our very way of life. Maritime security is critical to global economic prosperity and the delivery of humanitarian aid, international assistance, trade, development. Maritime nations understand this and they also know that the oceans no longer shield this from distant events as they once did in the past. The implications of this are beyond the reach of any single Navy in our nation. Addressing them requires collaboration. That's why we are here with NATO. We are working alongside the European Union and other like minded nations. Even recently beside non?traditional partners and we are all here with a common purpose. The world's navies are all united by the common care of the seas. They require a unique opportunity that doesn't require translation from one language to another. And for centuries this is served upon as the basis upon which the diplomacy of nations has been built. In closing as sailors know we are here to build trust among the nations of the world. They also know that I have every confidence in their ability to do just that. And for my ship's company at the end of the day it is really quite simple. They see what is happening in the world and they want to do something about it. And their Navy is giving them that chance. THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: I think you can see from Commander Liddells message there is a very practical element to this. The world's commerce much of which comes now by the oceans as well as the element of protecting and preventing attacks on vessels that are moving through various ocean lanes now that require us to continue to keep those lanes open so that we can take part in, for example, the reference to the world food program. That literally saved thousands, hundreds of thousands of lives during a drought in Somalia. Much of what we are seeing in terms of piracy today is brought about by desperation, first when you see very real crisis of drought, of desperate poor situations, that leads to acts of piracy but also it has become very much an organized crime in an element that is very deliberate and very pointed at hijacking vessels, taking persons ransom, that has been a recent experience. And the numbers have, in fact, I don't want to say sky rocketed, that may be over stating the fact. But this is a problem that is not going away. The international component and the partnerships that are taking place right now on NATO operations on EU operations will require standardizing certain practices particularly around what do we do with individuals we capture. Right now the emphasis for Canada is on protection and deterrents, but there is this very real issue of what do we do when we catch somebody in the act of piracy. So there is an international component, a domestic component. Some have suggested you take pirates back to your own jurisdiction and there is a great deal of debate on that. And I guess finally on the issue what we need to determine is, is it necessary at this point because of this looming crisis to convene an international conference of sorts to set down some standardized approaches because it has been rather ad hoc in my opinion what is the best body to deal with the issues of piracy? How do we continue to coordinate these efforts and how do we, for example, engage some of those countries most affected who are outside the bodies of the European Union and NATO. So I'm posing questions, I suppose, back, but Canada takes its role very seriously as demonstrated by our deployment of the Fredrickson, weve deployed ships previously the H.M. [INAUDIBLE] was there we had the Winipeg there last year which I had the pleasure to visit at Christmas. As you can see first and foremost our sailors are extremely proud of the effort and the contribution that they're making. And Canada as a maritime nation intends to continue its contributions for economic reasons and also for humanitarian reasons. MODERATOR: Thank you Minister MacKay. Admiral Fitzgerald you are not just at the center of this issue you are in some ways at the very top of it commanding fleets and overseeing missions. Your perspective on the issue. ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: A couple of thoughts. First of all, what really is our threat out there? When you look at what's happening in Africa because that's really what impacts in Europe it's not just the piracy issue in Somalia that's a crisis. Down in the Gulf of Guinea where we are doing a lot of work we are seeing violent piracy down there where it is not ships that are taken it's people that are taken and held hostage and ransomed and people are getting killed down there. We are seeing drug smuggling which used to come out of South America north which has now been pretty much I wouldn't say stopped but very slowed down. Those drugs are now coming into Africa by sea destabilizing countries in Africa but then working their way up into Europe where places on the Iberian Peninsula like Spain who used to be the lowest consumers of cocaine 10 years ago are now the biggest consumers. Piracy started by illegal fishing in Somalia. In the Gulf of Guinea it is a one billion a dollar year loss to the countries in the Gulf of Guinea, plus the stocks of fish are getting fished out. Illegal immigration and movement of illicit cargoes come by sea. And we have been doing in the Mediterranean NATOs Article 5 operation active endeavor since 2001 where we are going after counter terrorism, counter W M D. The list goes on. We just saw the Israelis stop a ship with UNSCR prohibited cargo heading in. So we have this whole conundrum of how we stop this trafficking at sea? The minister talked very eloquently about how do we get to a point where right now we have almost a kind of shooting the arrow kind of problem. We are out there trying to catch pirates in small dows where there are thousands of small dows out at sea, how do we get at the root cause of this? We have a tactical piece which is the Navy at sea, we have a strategic piece which is the UN where they are steering committees and contact groups but we don't have an operational piece that goes after the money. For instance I was down in Kenya not too long ago and they were complaining that all of these rich Somalias were coming in and buying up all the real estate in Nairobi and Mombassa, I wonder where that money came from. The logistics speak. Anecdotally we see fishermen from Yemen going to sea with numerous 55?gallon drums of gas on their ships that they probably don't need. We know that the price of out board motors in Yemen has gone up two and a half times what they used to cost. And the law enforcement piece. How do we go after the middle men? How do we go after the financiers and how do we jail these pirates? We need something in the middle and whether that is commissioned under the UN, whether an organization such as the euro NATO takes that on. I think NATO is probably not the right choice because it is a law enforcement piece that were talking about here, but something in the middle there that brings all of that together has to come. And then other piece is building capacity. We tend to focus on single countries when we really need to focus on regions. And we need to focus on functions, things like energy security or whatever. When you look at the Straights of Babe el Mandel, more than 50 percent of the world's oil flow through them. How do we build capacity in the countries around there so that they can competently protect these places and we don't have to be sending our ships from our countries down there? MODERATOR: Thank you very much Admiral. Minister Van Middelkoop, your perspective. THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: You will realize this is very interesting because you have a long history of thinking [INAUDIBLE] and liberal and he founded [INAUDIBLE] the free sea and is today. In our days we do realize that in our global village the seas are more and more also the domain of illegal activities: illegal fishing; illegal migrant; and proliferation of weapons. That is one of the reasons why the UN had the Unifill Taskforce in the Mediterranean for the coast of Lebanon. The second issue, more specific, of course, is piracy. And I suppose we can come back on details later. [INAUDIBLE] When I start two and a half years ago as a Minister of Defense all of my focus was on Afghanistan. But it is also on the region south of Aden off of the coast of Somalia. Now we are commanding a EU maritime taskforce [INAUDIBLE] for ships on an everyday basis. I got reports from that area. I think it is on a general level interesting that piracy is part of the problems we have to face that there is a large part of this world that is disconnected or the [INAUDIBLE] one of the famous [INAUDIBLE]. The poor people, especially in Africa but also in some parts of Asia ? and they can [INAUDIBLE] our interest in a lot of ways. One of the areas is piracy but it is only one of them. And we have to realize that the real causes, of course, are not on the sea but is on the fragile state of Somalia. I can tell you more about that but maybe later. The third point is also interesting. After the fall of the Wall, after the ending, more or less, of the [INAUDIBLE] there was a kind of return from the high seas to more to the continents, from the blue water to the brown water. Also, a lot of people though that you could sell your sophisticated [INAUDIBLE] and you could build less sophisticated ocean going [INAUDIBLE] vessel. And we are still in the process. Now we realize that upcoming countries like India and China, again, now are entering the high seas. For instance, China is building a lot of Navy stations in the neighborhood of India and I suppose that can be perceived as a threat to India. The high seas are dead, more or less, and we have to develop more maritime awareness and it will be also a more prevalent place on our strategic analysis. MODERATOR: Thank you very much. As I listen to you I'm struck by what we have here. We have so much in this issue. We have organized crime. We have piracy. We have smuggling of weapons. We have international relations. We have military and naval deployments. We have new alliances being formed. It is a huge subject and we're going to bring as many people into it as we can. Perhaps we can begin with the issue of piracy and see where that takes us because it does touch on some of these themes. I forgot to mention we also have perhaps some power plays between some of our international organizations, the European Union versus NATO for example, we may hear more about that. On the issue of piracy is this an issue in your view one that we can solve or is it a problem that we are simply trying to manage? ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: Piracy is not really a naval problem. I mean, the result is naval but it is kind of like a bank robber. They are out there robbing the bank and then using the sanctuary of land as their hide out. And so you really have to go after the hide out here. So how do you get at the land problem of this? You can't just go in there and take a kinetic and go and bomb and [INAUDIBLE] because my count today was 13 ships and 270 hostages. So you can't put those people at risk. So how do you get at those people? And as I alluded to in my opening remarks, I think you have to go after the money because that's what it is really all about. It started as we have people illegally fishing in our economic zone but it is quickly turning into organized crime. So you have to get after that piece of it. I think the other piece of it is that you have to start building some capacity in the government. And the government of Putland is working with the Gibudi to start training out some maritime professionals. That will take a long period of time but it is certainly a worthy effort to start at. Whether you will ever get a stable Somalia I have some significant doubts about how stable you will get Somalia but you certainly can start to go after those pieces on land that enable the pirates to go to sea. MODERATOR: And yet you were suggesting that it is not just off the coast of Somalia. Obviously this is an issue that is in many of our seas. ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: Absolutely. In the Gulf of Guinea we are spending a lot of time because you have much more stable government governments you have much more capacity there. 18 percent of the oil that is coming to North America is coming out of the Gulf of Guinea, so you have a lot of money down there trying to build up what we consider the four pillars, having a picture, being able to train the professionals, being able to build up the infrastructure and being able to respond and doing that in a regional way so that those countries can start to protect that economic exclusions. MODERATOR: Piracy, of course, has a long tradition. But it is really a problem that is calling for a nontraditional response. Has the problem been enhanced because perhaps the initial response was a traditional response of task force, naval task forces? THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: I think that is very true, Susan. I think it has changed. I think just like the face of war changed dramatically to insurgency and counter insurgency. We have to modernize our approaches. And there is a whole basket of problems and different elements to this what I would phrase the larger term of maritime security. Piracy being one and perhaps the one that has received the most publicity. And I still think the public hasn't quite dialed in to how important this is, imagine if you closed down some of the major shipping lines in the world today. Imagine if you took Suez and Panama out of commission for example. This is not the pirates of eye patches and peg legs and parrots. I mean, this is a very serious problem that could literally grind economies of the world to a halt if it is allowed to proliferate. And there is drug trade, there is very much human smuggling. There are elements, in fact, I dont want to sound alarmist or extreme but if a ship carrying a dirty bomb came into a port like Halifax and we have seen the effects of a huge explosion in this harbor what it can do to a population, those are very real concerns that we have to address. And so I think the commercial sector is actually responding quicker and with more dexterity than government. They are doing much more screening on containers, for example, they are taking the actual infrastructure and port security more seriously. My concern is I don't think the international community has a coordinated approach. I don't think we have even identified, for example, how we are going to address some of the major concerns about keeping shipping lines open. And the desperation in many of the countries of Africa as the Admiral has said, those are the root causes that are the driver or the incentive, if you will, for pirates to go out on the water and try to hijack ships for cargo or kidnapping purposes. MODERATOR: Mr. Van Middelkoop from the European perspective the effect of piracy to Europe's goods that come into Europe is immediate and present. We have already seen some examples of the European economy taking a hit from some of the action on the seas. In your view is the management of the problem now where it needs to be? We've been looking at this for years and yet people see the same ship attacked this week that was attacked earlier this year off the coast of Somalia the Maersk. THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: Maybe further from the coast of Somalia than a year ago. The area is huge. It is about a thousand miles from the coast of Somalia so it is very difficult. I have been along side the NATO summiting and with Peter MacKay on this issue. [INAUDIBLE] say that NATO has the first responsibility and well being pragmatic I am a member of the EU as well as from NATO. And it doesnt matter what flag is on it if it happens. On the other hand the strategic concept for NATO is of course is worldwide and I think [INAUDIBLE] so we have to use NATO. But on the other end Europe has a lot of experience with Africa, in Africa. They have a lot more money for doing jobs like training, for instance. This week, Monday and Tuesday in Brussels we took a decision to plan, only to plan [INAUDIBLE] in the European Union to plan for training soldiers from Somalia or trying to [INAUDIBLE] the possibility for the coast guards. I do realize it is a hell of a job and it will take years. But if your analysis is that the real problem is on the ground you have to do something over there. And that's what we are doing. My compliments for the Navy is that they are very creative. The job is very traditional. The Navy is protecting the merchants. One of my new experiences is that I am now under a constant pressure of [INAUDIBLE] I like it because I have a good Navy and I can answer. The compliment is that the EU and NATO together found solutions for protecting the corridor south where about 20 or 30,000 ships a year do pass. We don't have so many ships so we have to find a solution. And they did. So the last year, I think, there was no ship hijacked in that corridor. And from a point of view of protecting real interest of what is very important. Side effect, a very interesting side effect is that we are now coordinating our efforts with the Chinese, for instance, even ships from Iran. My view is that cooperating at sea is always far more easy than land but that is a very general remark. MODERATOR: Why is that? THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: The interesting thing is even from a global strategic perspective the Chinese are coming out more or less, in the first place in economics they are becoming active in Africa. They are not the political global players the United States was and is and shall be for a lot of years. But now they realize that their real economic interests are threatened somewhere else far outside China in the world. So they have to do something. So their defense policies have to become global. About a month ago they were very hesitant or reluctant to cooperate with the EU. There was a conversation only with the Commander and that was it. A couple of weeks later a Chinese ship was hijacked and within a couple of days there was a relation between EU [INAUDIBLE] and the Chinese. And I think that even the Commander or the Commander in [INAUDIBLE] went to Beijing for having some talks with the Chinese. So a lot of ships are coming in. And that makes it more [INAUDIBLE] I do realize that it was even before. So that is today my answer. MODERATOR: I think perhaps we can bring in the audience now. I see we have a lot of questions. AUDIENCE: Thank you for your time. Great to see you here. I am General Renuart, I am Commander of Norad and U.S. northern command and this particular topic is a particularly important one for us. In our Norad role we are tasked by both the government of the United States and Canada to provide maritime warning of threats to each of our two nations. In my U.S. national hat I'm charged with home land defense and civil support which has a certain maritime defense element to it, a significant one. Mr. van Middelkoop, you mentioned defense becoming more global. And Admiral Fitzgerald mentioned this is not a naval issue its a law enforcement issue and my dilemma and I think for many nations is that gray area that is between defense of a nations state threat and law enforcement or security of criminal activities and the like. And it seems to me that piracy today fits in both of those domains. And so I ask maybe for the opinions of the ministers on how nations come to grips with that gray area between what is traditionally a defense of the nation and traditionally what is a law enforcement activity and should we try to define it so cleanly? Or should we accept the gray area that is there and understand that it is both a Navy problem and a law enforcement problem? Thank you. MODERATOR: Would you like to begin, minister? THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: It gives me the opportunity to support Mr. MacKay when he says that we need an international conference on this issue. Because a lot of problems [INAUDIBLE]. You are right. It is law enforcement. But we are mandated by the security counsel to do what we are doing there, NATO and the EU and [INAUDIBLE] we can deter and do something with piracy. I know there are countries where it's in their constitution forbidden to use military means for [INAUDIBLE] not in my constitution, but they have to realize that if they have real security problems at sea or commercial problems at sea they have to find an answer. You cant send a policeman in a boat on the sea. There are more legal issues I'm faced with. For instance, what shall we do if a Somolian pirate is asking asylum when he is on my ship? And you all understand that is not very [INAUDIBLE] if you bring in every day pirates. We get 4 or 5. They had a very good time in our prison. It is far better living there than in Somalia. So those questions we have to solve. There is a constant 24 hours 7 days a week line between the Commander and the prosecutor in my country, to solve this crisis as soon as possible. And especially finding a solution there in that region. The EU has made a covenant with Kenya that we can bring pirates to Kenya and they will be prosecuted there. I'm afraid that will not last so there are also talks with the [INAUDIBLE] and I think we have to find new solutions of being there for court. And there are ideas from [INAUDIBLE] court in the region, something like that but that I do realize is an issue for long term. MODERATOR: Minister MacKay. THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: It is a penetrating statement obviously to say it is complex because every country unless you are land locked is going to have Admiralty laws that will apply. There are jurisdictional issues whether you are inside or outside territorial water. There are issues, of course, and I think that General Renuart and the Admiral's comments are correct that it is a law enforcement issue. And I think if there was a simple solution which there never is would be to build the capacity of coast guard because there are more appropriate means, I suppose, to police the waters than the Navy. But as Admiral Dean McPhadden will agree there is nothing that announces its presence with authority than a fully loaded battle ship in a sea lane. However, that deterrents only goes so far. When you get into the thick of it and you have to actually intervene and take prisoners as a result of the attack on a ship as we have seen on a number of occasions, then you're seized with the issue. Now, do you put them shore in a country where youre able to negotiate an agreement, a transfer arrangement? Does that sound familiar, with a country like Kenya [INAUDIBLE] or others? Some of these countries, I think are now into a bit of a bargaining process with countries. Sure we would be willing to enter into an arrangement with you. By the way, what is our international aid and this has become problematic. I am stating the obvious. There is no standardized approach thus far that appears to be providing any real answers. We're taking a patchwork quilt approach to what has become a significant problem. And that, again, we are still on the subject of piracy. There are still broader issues and one that I think would be a concern to many in this room is the environmental impact because if a little dow goes out loaded with gasoline or oil or other toxic materials and capsizes or winds up in waters that are very sensitive it impacts on fishing, severely on the environment. I wont go into the subject of the arctic yet but our arctic waters are opening up. That puts a whole new front in terms of our vulnerability as a country, as a continent as to who is navigating those waters and what impact that will have economically and environmentally. ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: Just one quick comment which is the defense and this security. We have a hard time struggling with that. And NATO as we develop our new strategic concept we've got to come to grips with this because as we see in even Afghanistan drugs become a big issue to the security of the country yet that's not a traditional role of defense of NATO. And so I think you're absolutely right, Gene, in that we've got to decide how those overlapping capabilities of law enforcement and defense fit together and don't leave any seams in there. MODERATOR: I know there are lots of questions in the audience and I'll start with this gentleman right here. We just might come to you right away. AUDIENCE: You have rightly stressed the need for a closer scrutiny attention to the link between piracy and failing states. There is indeed a positive correlation between the incidents of piracy and the level of the sea ships here in the coastal states. What do you think of the proposal to expand the definition, legal definition of piracy to include the territorial waters of failing states? That's a tricky legal question. Another is associated with the problem of prosecution of the pirates you mentioned. You mentioned the agreement between EU and Kenya. But also it cannot last for long. What do you think for the proposal to establish ad hoc international tribunal to deal with pirates? MODERATOR: Who would like to begin there? THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: Let me try. I'm not a legal expert but I can I think answer your first question about expanding definition of piracy. It is, in fact, expound by the Security Counsel allowing us, NATO, EU, whatever, into the territorial waters to do the same as outside. So there is no problem there as far as the definition is concerned. It is an international crime and we can accomplish this inside the territorial waters. But we need a resolution of the security counsel. So it is pretty important. Of course I do believe I have to believe that bringing to a court is a road you have to walk on because if you believe in the rule of law it is impossible to live with a situation that they cannot be brought to court. But you realize how difficult it is. We have some experiences with Rowanda, Yugoslavia, etc. MR. YUKIO OKAMOTO: My Minister of Foreign Affairs is trying to find a solution to that. But next to that trying to find the networks, where the money is going to, is, I think, almost just as important. There's one specific piracy issue that I have to mention. In my Parliament there is a strong pressure on me to bring military owned ships. It is naive in a couple of ways because there are so many ships, etc. There are a lot of legal issues you have to solve and it is almost impossible. One of the reasons I am resisting this is I am afraid of an escalation of firearms, dont forget they are interested not in fighting, but money and that is the reason why you have to be careful with defense equipment and sometimes you have to accept although we are not responsible ? that is a kind of bribery and money is paid, not by governments, I hope. Not by my government. That shows that it is not only a military problem but also a legal and far more broader problem. MODERATOR: Mr. MacKay you wanted to say something. THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: Just briefly in the response to the suggestion that we would essentially take control of a country's internal waters or coastal waters. I think that would be very problematic. There is the UN convention on the law of the sea that may have some application here. But international and admiralty law is voluminous. I think it is down more to the practicalities of how do we protect our own interests and those of countries we want to assist. Its a bit analogist to everyone's desire to do something but without the cooperation of their government how do we bring effect? This subject of the shipping lanes themselves coming under attack, until such time as we are able to come to an international agreement or solution in what is the best means to do so, not to [INAUDIBLE] the point on NATO versus EU, I do believe that NATO is more depth given its military capacity right now and its ability to partner with other countries while clearly not the best solution it seems to me to be the most practical one until we are able to broaden the net, pardon the maritime pun, of including countries like China, like Russia, like Turkey, countries that are currently not in the EU. NATO seems to be the epicenter of a solution that will include more countries. And I guess finally what we really need to do is focus on those root causes of piracy and address the solutions through the countries from which the pirates, themselves find their origins. MODERATOR: Another question from the audience. AUDIENCE: German Ambassador, former legal advisor, one brief comment. I fully agree that there is nobody to simply allow in general to enter the territorial waters of failed or failing states. The security counsel did it in the case of Somalia which was an individual case with the consent of the Somalia government [INAUDIBLE] with an explicit line in the resolution that this would not set the precedents for other cases. My questions one is I see two defense ministers, one Admiral of mighty war ships say things [INAUDIBLE] the law enforcement questions. Do you see any chance or would you deem it wise to build a kind of capacity for an international naval police force because it is a lot of law enforcement? My second question, Minister Middelkoop, as you do, we do, we hand over detainees to Kenya for the time being. I don't know what Canada and the U.S. are doing. Would you prefer something like the ICC criminal court based in the [INAUDIBLE] to have jurisdiction over pirates? And my third question very brief, away from piracy proliferation security initiative, trying to get rid of the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. You have the ships but you have no legal basis. It is not a legal instrument, Resolution 1540 does not allow the interception of ships, the boarding of ships if they fly a flag and if they do not consent to it. So is there mainly a lack of legal instruments unlike in the piracy cases? MODERATOR: Admiral let me start with you. Would you like to comment on the idea of an international police force? ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: There's obviously a lot of things that go into that particular question. There's the practical issue of this is a long way from home. You've got to be able to refuel the ships. You've got to be able to stay at sea for a long period of time. I'm assuming a coast guard or small vessel kind of force they may not be able to get to sea. They may not be able to get the fuel, they may not have the distance. We are starting to see the pirates roam around half the Indian Ocean and that requires vessels with some stamina. I'm not sure how you would build that force, who would fund it and once the piracy issue was hopefully solved what you would then do with it. We've got ships that were developed for multi warfare missions. This is just one of those missions. It seems to be the best use of those right now. MODERATOR: So you have assumed the responsibility, in other words. ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: Unfortunately but true, or maybe fortunately. One other piece we seem to be painting Kenya as the fix all, end all for the trying of pirates. To not get real specific Kenya has significant problems in their jails. They are over crowded by a factor of 3 to 4. Their judicial system has significant issues with it and is prone to bribery. And so I don't believe we've yet had the first successful criminal trial of pirates there. And there have been several let go. So there's some issues there. And so I think we do need a better solution to how we incarcerate these pirates. MODERATOR: Ministers would you like to respond? THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: Just to follow up on that point. Very complex issues. If you turn over detainees and again the situation that Canada and others are seized with now. Then you have to institute a rigorous system of follow up and monitoring. You then, I think, are morally obliged to do more as far as training of guards and officials as well as investing in their legal capacity. It is a subject matter of capacity building then within that country. As soon as you take someone aboard you take responsibility for that person. That's why I think a lot of countries that are involved in the anti piracy issues right now simply don't take prisoners. They deter, they protect and patrol but they don't actually intervene which I suppose is the same as combat versus nom combat. If you are not prepared to take prisoners you are limited in your ability to fight a war. So this subject matter is one that requires logically thinking through the next step. And once you take on responsibility for an international policing effort of the water, where does that end? And how far does it extend? And clearly your own citizens are going to ask what does that cost. In the case of our country we have a massive coast line to patrol here in North America plus our NORAD responsibility for maritime approaches. So with each answer or solution comes 15 other questions that you have to be prepared to answer. THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: I can [INAUDIBLE] what is the [INAUDIBLE] but still I need, I think the military equipment for this kind of intelligence we have a long tradition for in the Caribbean because part of the Netherlands is the Caribbean. We do cooperate with the Americans. [INAUDIBLE] we have airplanes for civilians. You have to use military equipment to solve this type of criminality. Because youre right. Its criminality. It is not a classical war[INAUDIBLE] The second point, maybe there's kind of a solution in between, but now I'm improvising and thats risky for a minister. You will realize that. Bringing in Kenya and the [INAUDIBLE] bringing them in the end you have Kenya will end. I'm sure. So that is the reason why the EU is now bargaining with [INAUDIBLE] etc. You know and I suppose far better than I know how long it took for most of the countries in the world, not all, to accept that [INAUDIBLE] but if we are succeeding to bring some back to Somalia itself that will be helpful to bring them to court in Somalia. I'm not sure which country it was but a couple of months ago some pirates were brought to Somalia and brought to court there. And I can tell you the punishment was terrible for those guys in that country. So if we are succeeding in [INAUDIBLE] for the government also in the role of law, we can give them back to the country where they belong. MODERATOR: I've got many questions building up. You're next but I want to begin with you here. We have a microphone. You have been waiting patiently. Thank you. AUDIENCE: Thank you. [INAUDIBLE] German Ministry of Defense. I share lots of [INAUDIBLE] on comments that I've heard. I would like to come back to one. What is really of very importance about what Navy can do, what our missions can do and what is to go to the roots, maybe, of the issue. I wouldn't think that anybody here would be able to counterfere and counteract against the phenomenon of piracy which has occurred I think in the antique times up to the future but maybe to decrease the number of piracy acts. If you fly he federal aircraft over Somalia and [INAUDIBLE] you are able to see where they are, where the [INAUDIBLE] you can see every individual. I would like to get a comment on how far you from your??admiral from your Navy experience in this region you could share the observation that two things we could and should do. The first is that we should organize somehow a regime which allows all the failed states, but the living citizens there to get by fishing an income. If you see, by the way, how many [INAUDIBLE] in the Gulf of Aden are actually there from rich countries it is very interesting to see. How is the possibility that there could be assistance of the Navy in controlling because I'm very skeptical? But we have to report from the European Union. And the second is what could be done about contingency building? I refer to the French attempt, to have a police training of Somali policeman, especially in the sense of a coast guard to do that? MODERATOR: Someone will take that for you. Thank you. I think we have touched on the policing a bit, but on the issue of the failed fishing industry in Somalia and the root causes of the piracy, the suggestion that these are social bandits and what kind of response that calls for? ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: Well, it's interesting because a lot of the countries that fish in that area don't want to tell us where those boats are and the fishermen obviously roam the seas. And clearly a country owns its economic exclusions on that. Up to 200 miles it is supposed to enforce that zone. If it can't enforce it does that give another person the right to poach in that area? I touched on that in the Gulf of Guinea. We are losing a billion dollars a year down there. The stocks are getting fished out. The same thing is happening in Somalia. And so the nations that are responsible for that I think have to enforce that. Should the Navy do that? That's not a Navy task. Navies aren't empowered typically to do law enforcement activities. We certainly can report but we are non enforcement. So anyway that's kind of my short answer to that. MODERATOR: Mr. MacKay, is this a topic for your proposed international conference? THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: I think it is. I think we are touching on a whole range of subjects. There is an international legal framework that I think has to be addressed which is complex and like most legal things can become very convoluted quickly. There is just the practical of how we coordinate what we're doing currently. Because in the short term that's all we have. Its the international contributions of the countries like The Netherlands, NATO countries, EU countries, those that find themselves outside those definitions and getting them there which also involves, in my view, greater coordination because it is not happening currently. Intelligence sharing which we know in military circles is always challenging, [INAUDIBLE] intelligence, human intelligence on the preventative side and that goes back to the sources of the countries where these pirates originate or launch their ships. And then that aspect, I suppose, that is, again, one of the practical nature which I tend to lean towards is how do we help those countries, those source countries, build their own capacity, whether it is increasing their own coast guard or naval capacity, whether it is improving their legal structures, injecting a greater robust system. My colleague, Eimert, mentioned the Caribbean. That has a direct impact on certainly North America. The drug trade that is coming in through the Caribbean through Haiti, for example, which has become a thoroughfare for much of the drug trade in North America, and it is this very gray line between policing and military as to who is tasked with the enforcement. What's happening in Mexico is interesting not necessarily limiting this just to the drug trade but there the military have basically taken over the fight against narco?trafficking, not the police. THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: Can I add a few words to that? We are more or less successful in the Caribbean. But you have to realize that the result is that the drug trafficking is not coming from North America, not through the Caribbean that's the rest of Africa. [INAUDIBLE] are very, very involved. So I think that in the near future we have to face new problems in that part of the disconnected world of the federal states. Coming back to the fishing question. Well, it's a serious problem. But let us be honest it is never an excuse for piracy, of course. And, if so, they didn't [INAUDIBLE] but a very moderate income, I suppose. The problem is the lack of the rule of law in Somalia. And the last question about coast guards, this one extra thing I did mention was that the African Union and I think we have to support the African Union whatever we can in Africa being more responsible in a far more cheaper way that we can of building up societies in Africa. There is an [INAUDIBLE] an African Union mission supporting that mission, for example, supporting [INAUDIBLE] supporting the Army that is contributing to [INAUDIBLE] is also one of the means we can use to do something in a positive way in Somalia. MODERATOR: There is a gentleman here who has been very patient with me. Right here if we can have a micro phone in the second row. AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] I'm from Turkey. I have two brief questions. One is for Admiral Fitzgerald. Do you make any assessments? It seems now this piracy is limited around Africa. Do you make any assessments in NATO or somewhere else that there is a possible proliferation of this piracy to somewhere else in the world? My second question is for Minister MacKay. There was no mentioning of a possible linkage between terrorist networks and piracy. Is there one? Do we have any intelligence on this and do you think the terrorist networks including al Qaeda and something else can use these pirates as some kind of financial means to the activities or to harm western interests? MODERATOR: Thank you for that question. We haven't hit on that aspect of this issue yet, so if we can start with that. ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: The piece on Africa, piracy is going to go where the conditions are right for piracy, weak or failed states, low income, poverty level, large mail population under 25, those kinds of things. All of those conditions are in Africa and you have seen this not just in Somalia, you have seen it in Niger Delta with the [INAUDIBLE]. I personally am worried of seeing it move from the Niger Delta but south or north. You have a lot of vulnerabilities as you go either direction to the energy security piece. I want to go back a little bit to another question but to answer yours is: what is our concern with piracy? Should we be worried about all piracy? And if so then we're going to have to put a lot more assets at it. Or should we be worried about those things that concern our vital national interests? And I think, Minister, you talked about it. We have [INAUDIBLE] off the Gulf of Aden. We are not seeing problems there. That's where all of our oil is going through and the energy security that goes through there is vital to our national interests. We're picking off these smaller vessels out in the middle of the Indian Ocean that did not take their responsibility correctly and did not defend their vessels. Should we be responsible for that? So just to liven the pot up a little bit Africa is a problem, but right now could this go other places? Yes, it could if the conditions are right. MODERATOR: Do either of the ministers want to touch on the issue of terrorism? THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: Sadly I find myself agreeing with the Admiral and with some reluctance, again, at a risk of being alarmist. There is no question that an international terrorist network that wants to impact on a nation, we do know that the shipping lanes, the traffic coming on the water has gone up exponentially and will continue to do so. The ships, themselves, that are carrying these containers are getting larger and more difficult, therefore, to monitor. I mean, the percentages of containers that are actually monitored at source let alone at the point of delivery is quite minuscule when you consider the sheer volume. Post Panamax and the new Super Panamax ships carry so much cargo now, to slip a box in there that may have a weapon or a biological weapon, I mean, it is awful to think about, but that's what security forces are tasked to do and to try to disrupt and prevent. Which is why, again, I come back to the issue of sharing intelligence on this front between nations I think is a critical piece of the prevention and the protection that we have to really task our ourselves to take responsibility for. But the short answer is yes this is a real risk given our vulnerability and the sheer volume of traffic on the water these days, that is a clear point of vulnerability that terrorists could exploit. THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: I do agree completely with Peter MacKay has said in general because we have to face terrorism also by ships after September 11. We try to make some arrangements to our ports. The more specific question was around Somalia. I think until today it is difficult to bring a link between terrorist groups or deactivest groups or even al Qaeda with the term piracy so I am careful using that argument. It has its own process. And there are even some examples that people were brought to court in Somalia and got a long time imprisonment because they had to face the Sharia because it was forbidden in the Sharia so but it can happen. Those states are vulnerable for groups and terrorist links. As far as I know I'm choosing today that argument. MODERATOR: If we could limit the questions to just one question per person because we are coming up to the top of the clock. Yes, sir, right here. You have been waiting for a while. Thank you. AUDIENCE: Thank you. My name is Yukio Okamato. I run a [INAUDIBLE] in Japan. Japan now has a problem. We are now likely going to withdraw our fleet from the Indian Ocean as a part of OEF. Mostly for domestic reason unfortunately but there are some in Japan including myself who are pushing for the idea of directing these naval vessels to the Gulf of Aden to join our escort ships doubling our anti piracy capacity there. And we would like to think that this is a form of international contribution to the security because we have passed a law enabling Japanese naval vessels to be able to protect merchant fleet of other nationalities. But there are also seniors from international [INAUDIBLE] who this could never be a substitute for your contribution because in a role as a fight against terrorists you are dealing with more than just people. Whereas pirates are just for money and what you're going to do is simply to protect your own economic interests. So my fundamental question is: Given the threat of pirates posing to the international community, is that always the right attitude to treat them as a money versus money issue and regarding pirates as less than [INAUDIBLE] more amiable people that terrorists? MODERATOR: Would you like to ? ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: We greatly value the contribution of those oilers because it allows our ships to stay at sea longer and it shows Japan's commitment to a very large international armada. Just make sure they have forced protection decks on board so we don't end up getting one captured. In the bigger context of how we view pirates, the guys that are there are people who are desperate. The pirates that we're catching are emaciated. They don't eat well. In fact, some who have been as we pointed out brought to some of the European jails love life there because they get three squares a day. Some of the ones we capture on our ships and had to keep on the ships have gained 20 or 30 kilos while they are there. So the bottom line is that these are desperate people. And the command and control structure that allows them to get to sea, so the money that gets to them, the middle men, those are the people that we want to get at. For every pirate we catch at sea there are a thousand lined up at shore to go out and do this in Somalia. THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: I think if you are the captain of a ship and you see a [INAUDIBLE] coming towards you with people with rocket launchers aboard you are not asking what their motives are, whether it is terrorism, political or otherwise, or whether they are coming because they are desperate. Although I do agree that the majority of them are desperate and they are former fishermen and they are being exploited perhaps by a larger network of criminals. I don't think that many of the pirates are doing this on their own initiative. I think there is, quite frankly, some equivalent of organized crime behind them which is why in the short term having that presence there, participating in NATO or EU patrols, protecting those shipping lanes and specifically protecting operators of vessels, there is no alternative. That presence is the only way to deter those attacks and in some cases it takes a very forceful intervention to prevent the takeover of a ship. And once the takeover of a ship has occurred then we're into a whole other realm of difficulties and challenges. Most Navy vessels including our own do have a direct communication back to their country of origin for legal advice. Our Judge Advocate General is in regular communication with captains and commanders of vessels. MODERATOR: If we can move on here now. Sir, you have a question. It's on its way. AUDIENCE: I'm former naval person who many, many years ago spent a few of my early days chasing unsuccessfully pirates in the Philippians. I have actually a broader question about the maritime domain. If you take a look at western navies they are all in numerical decline. The navies that are growing are the Chinese and the Indians. If the Indians have their 10 year building program, they will build more war ships than the United States and NATO combined. Some years ago the U.S. Navy came up with the notion of maritime partnerships. I would not like to use the term coalition of the willing, but it was a genius idea to bring together civilian and military forces to exchange information. I'm wondering in a broader sense if you had a chance to think through a framework in the future that could be building on to the Incidents at Sea Agreement that was signed in 1972 between the Soviet Union and United States Navy but something more broadly to establish maritime cooperation globally that takes into account some of the enlarging navies that may have the capacity and the ability to support in new areas of the world. MODERATOR: Minister van Middelkoop, why don't you start with that? You talked about some of the new alliances and partnerships that have been forming almost on an ad hoc basis. Why dont you tackle this question? THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: I think as a result of part of my analysis I gave before the answer would have to be yes. We have to think those questions. I don't have the answers. And I will not put it on the agenda of our conference. [INAUDIBLE] part of my analysis that we need more maritime awareness. I don't think that all the navies are in decline. My Navy is in the process of transformation from blue water to brown water. Maybe you will define it as a Navy in decline. I can understand that. But maybe as a result of you thinking of the new strategic challenge of NATO this specific challenge can be arranged in a new way. THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: I would respond positively, as well. Partnerships in this particular area, most important, I think maritime awareness, domain awareness goes beyond just naval vessels. Obviously Eimert mentioned earlier patrol vessels over water, sonar buoys and satellite also very useful in terms of maritime awareness and the port security itself. Like others, Canada's Navy is in need of refurbishment. We are intending and have a long term Canada first offense strategy that very much involves the Navy. This is our 100th anniversary of the Navy. That centennial is coming this year. I hear regularly from naval officers the thing that they want most is new ships and that very much goes to the ability to recruit and retain and bring the type of people that we need to increase that presence on the blue water and elsewhere. MODERATOR: Admiral. ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: I think there is a lot more progress on this then we would suspect. But I just came from the International Sea Power Symposium two weeks ago in New Port where we had 110 maritime nations represented, 85 chiefs of Navy there. And the consensus was that we have gotten better in the last two years by a significant amount. We have started a system called the Maritime Safety and Security Information System. Sixty plus nations all contribute their maritime picture to that which allows us to share data. And trust becomes the most important factor here. What are you going to share and how will you share it? And we're getting there. I won't tell you that we're anywhere close. I would also tell you that when you count NATO's partners and NATO's contact countries you have over half the nations of the world. You have about 120 countries. That allows you to do a lot of this kind of work. And it's something that we're building on and trying to expand. So while I wouldn't call it in the crawl, walk, run, we are not at the run but we are in the walk phase. MODERATOR: Just a few minutes left and several hands. The woman here in the front row. Microphone coming. Thanks for being so patient. We'll try to get through as many questions as we can in the remaining minutes. AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] U.S. Center for Naval Analysis and Former Deputy under Secretary of Defense. Thank you, Minister, for convening this excellent conference. Climate change is a threat multiplier for instability in fragile regions of the world and is likely in future years to exacerbate some of the challenges we have talked about today as populations become more desperate from scarcity of water, food, extreme weather events, sea level rise and related problems. Do you see, Admiral, the need for increased capability to respond to humanitarian assistance in disaster relief situations and what types of capability? And defense ministers, do you see any opportunity to increase maritime partnerships in the furtherance of adaptive capacity that will be needed to begin to prevent some of the challenges faced by climate change in the future? MODERATOR: Thank you for that question. ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: I can start out real quick by saying on both the U.S. and the NATO side I think we are positioning ourselves that way. The NATO response force which was 25,000 air men, sailors and soldiers are the real thrust of that whole organization on call is to be able to respond to an imminent catastrophe around the world. Certainly we are positioning ourselves that way. And then the Navy is kind of one of those missions that's always there. Will it increase over time? Very possibly. Within 8 percent of the world's populations within 200 or 100 miles, one of those numbers but it is very close to the coast and we're going to have to be ready to do that. THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: I would just say quickly yes and yes we very much view our Navy and our increased capacity as the ability to do and deliver more and they are literally and figuratively the delivery agent for compassionate humanitarian aide, disaster relief. Water is certainly an issue that we understand very clearly is one of the necessities of life that have to be addressed first. In places like Bangladesh we have seen areas where clean drinking water was the number one issue that had to be addressed. We had something called The Disaster Relief Team. Deploying that quickly is a critical enabler for humanitarian relief. And we have seen the Canadian Navy participate in hurricane relief in places like Jamaica. By all means this is very much into the plan for the future. And if there is one thing I know about the military is they are constantly making plans and looking at contingency arrangements but they need the equipment to get it there. THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: Very briefly, there is, of course, not a direct link between the climate change and security problems. It can be, but not always. And if so as the Admiral already said one of the frustrations of us is that we [INAUDIBLE] cannot never [INAUDIBLE] but one or two times we did and it was in New Orleans with the Katrina. And in my view the capacities we have now are capable to address those consequences. Maybe there will be new challenges because we don't know where problems of climate change will end. In my view it will take centuries but I think that is the answer for today. So I don't see a very serious [INAUDIBLE] for new capabilities. MODERATOR: I'm told we have time for one more brief question. I have had my back to this side for far too long. Sir, right here. AUDIENCE: My name is Earl [INAUDIBLE] from American [INAUDIBLE] and we operate some of those large container ships. I would first like to thank the coalition forces for the protection we do receive and they do a Herculean job. It took a while to get that going but we're quite satisfied. So I guess if I were a pirate, hypothetically speaking, I see little risk in going out there. Not to say there isnt any risk, but generally speaking I'm on a catch and release program. I'm going to get caught. You're going to send me to shore. You might take my weapons but I can buy more weapons. And the possibility of receiving [INAUDIBLE] is pretty high. From a stowaway and you catch me going up the gangway in a country who refuses to recognize me as a stowaway I'm stuck on a merchant ship for a long time until that merchant ship can talk another sovereign nation to taking custody of me as a stowaway. So my wife is a principal. She tells me without consequences it's hopeless. So I think part of the issue and part of the challenge in addition to everything you talked about is a lack of international regime that dishes out consequences. I appreciate your comments. THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: I agree. I think we do have to have consequences. Just like speeding down the highway and seeing a police car set up with a speed trap on the side of the road might force you to slow down but as soon as you get by him you're going to hit the accelerator again. There has to be consequences and the stakes are very, very high. In the law there is general and specific deterrents. There is the message that it sends to the individual but if this catch and release scenario continues we can expect that piracy will continue, if not proliferate further. So I think the international community now and I'm glad to know that there is a lot of effort being put forward by many groups. We still have to convene, I believe, an international forum and hone in on the solutions. We've had some great discussion here today but very few concrete solutions as far as how we address piracy. THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: I don't agree with you. It is a risky question. I think you have the proper mindset for becoming a pirate so be careful with those type of questions. It is a crime. Like crimes here in, of course, not in Halifax, but in other cities of the world. And there is no guarantee, not on land, not at sea that we could deter all crimes. But in the Gulf of Aden we have given the last year almost 100 percent guarantee, thank God, to deter pirates. Your ships and all of your colleagues pass that corridor. In my view that is a compliment for all the commanders of all the ships. I think we have found a solution, a specific solution or some solution by [INAUDIBLE] to solve that problem more or less. Of course, we realize that there is a proliferation but from the point of view of protecting real commercial interests and your interests I think we are doing a lot of good work. MODERATOR: Commander gets the last word. ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: Whether it is a little risk or a lot of risk if you're desperate you're going to take that risk. And so while your assessments are probably pretty close whether that pirate thinks that he's got a 50/50 chance of success or probably doesn't go into the equation because he knows that he probably doesn't have a future on shore. That's what we have to get after. How do we fix the problem on shore? MODERATOR: I think that brings our discussion, fascinating and interesting discussion to an end. Thank you to the audience for all our excellent questions. My apologies for anyone I overlooked or didnt get to quickly enough. And thank you to our excellent panelists, Ministers MacKay and van Middelkoop and Commander Fitzgerald. Thanks very much. MR. CRAIG KENNEDY: And thank you. Thank you very much.