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Fred Hochberg who is Dean of the Milano School of Urban Policy and Management will introduce all the guests. My task is to introduce Fred and to thank Buddy and Agnes, and Evelyn and George for coming here this evening and helping us understand better the world of philanthropy. I would tell two stories to introduce us. One involved an event in Nebraska that was held every year while I was in the Senate which was essentially a conference on the question of can you become wealthy by saving a relatively small amount of money over a long period of time. It was high school students who were involved in the conference. The key note speaker every year was Warren Buffet and the first year that Mr. Buffet spoke a question that he was asked was, Mr. Buffet with no disrespect to you sir, but aren't most wealthy people jerks? To which Warren answered, "No that's not my experience. My experience is that wealth just allows you to be a little more what you already were. So that if you start of a jerk and you become wealthy you can become a really big jerk and for $1000 an hour hire lawyers to sue all your friends otherwise you can do good things with your wealth", which all of our panelists this evening have done. The second story is that Fred's urging last year I told the most important moment in terms of learning about life, my life occurred. During a period of time, when I was, for the most part, flat on my back in a hospital bed for about eight months and learnt that what I had been taught all my life which is that the measure of a real man is our capacity to take care of themselves and what I learnt in that hospital was that the measure of a man is their willingness to allow others to help them and the capacity to let other people love you and to care for you is not an easy capacity to acquire and that at some point in our life all of us are going to need the care of others and all of us are going to have to learn how to give to the improvement of the lives of other human beings. So that I - very much appreciative whether its in the arts or whether its in health or whatever the purpose is, the purpose maybe to improve the quality of the New School. The generosity of the individuals willing to give some of their wealth to a cause like this is a deeply personal thing for me. And I very much appreciate what our philanthropists have done previously and it is now my privilege to introduce the Dean of the Milano School of Urban Policy and Management Mr. Fred Hochberg. Well, thank you Bob. I remember when I was at the SPA in Washington in the small business administration Bob Kerry was quoted as speaking to a group of students in Nebraska and asked if they rather inherit money or earn it on their own. And the class said they would rather earn it on their own. So when I repeated the story at an SPA conference someone shouted out why not both? Why can't I inherit it and making on them and I will have a lot more money that way. A few about two months ago, if this microphone stays up, there was an article in the Chronicle of Philanthropy and it said, I am going to quote, "The warm glow that many donors get from giving to charity involved the same brain mechanisms that evoked the pleasurable sensations after sex under a study found." So unless our panelists feel otherwise, I thought of we cover that at a different day being the New School. That's the kind of the things we do hear. All right we are starting on the right note. We have a number of students here, faculty members. We have a class on philanthropy. The non-profit field actually is one of the fields in one of our largest programs at the New School at Milano. It is also a program where we have a lot of career changes where people have been doing one thing and decided they want to try something else, they would like to "Do Good" or have an ability to sort of change the world in a more dramatic way. Our school, I am proud to say from the New York Times, a year ago or so, one of the top three schools in non profit and the only one of those three in New York City. And our students, many of which are here on the class and number of alum, they work on thorny issues, difficult issues that require a lot of analysis and a lot of thinking and so I hope that those of you in the audience, those on stage may even be inspired at the end of this, to consider hiring our students full-time, part-time as interns and so forth. Before I go further I want to invite a few of our special guests in the audience. We have few trustees and board members, Henry Arnhold, Steven Bloom, who is chair of our board, Gail Freeman who is 85' alumni, Susan Halpern I see right in the second row, it says it is 86' its 76' sorry. 76' Anne Hess is on our board, Lorie Slutsky who also an alum and Emily Youssouf. But let me get right down to the panelists so we don't waste any more time. Every one of these panelists are very generous with their time, their money and their interests and they all, as you saw already, speak their mind. They are all giving away their money, they are no foundation heads here, there are no program officers on this panel. These are people who are giving away their money because they want to change the way the world operates. And that's why we titled this "Big ideas sorry "Big Gifts, Big Ideas and Big Impact." Why we are doing this here is I want our students to understand how individual philanthropists operate. How they are different than when you are going to a foundation or corporation asking for a gift. I want this to be a safe place where I will ask questions and ultimately and we have two mikes in front of the room for questions from the audience, how it's different seeking a gift from a philanthropist seeking a gift from someone who is giving away their own money, is somewhat different. So I want this to be a risk free environment. One day you may be looking for funds from the people sitting on this panel, or you maybe go to work for them. But I want you to have an understanding of that. So let me quickly introduce the panel, first I am going to start at the far end with Buddy Fletcher who is the youngest member of this panel. We have done this before and the youngest from both panels we have done. I won't tell you how old he is because then I have to go through every body else's age. And he has been very active in business and investment banking and very active giving politically and to education of course. And you also have a bio of all our speakers in here, in the program. Evelyn Lauder is next to Buddy, comes from the EstÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â©e Lauder Company and frankly my family business and my mom Lillian Vernon always emulated the EstÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â©e Lauder Company. We never got quite to your level but your mother in law and your family was a huge inspiration to our company. She has joined the company when, in 1959, it did less than a $1 million in sales, today it does $7 billion a year. This is a this is a true American success story. She has really been a leader on philanthropic and charitable efforts in breast cancer research and treatment. She is very instrumental in establishing the pink ribbon which was done in 1992 in terms of a strong branding and awareness and Evelyn and I actually share one other thing which I will share with this audience, we both have this bizarre collection of doll head vases and I have got about only 30 or so, I imagine you have a lot more but I actually am privileged I have one photograph that Evelyn took that I have in my office. So I have a reminder of you on a regular basis. George Soros - I am out of order here, let me get back in order. George Soros in the center, just yesterday announced a million dollar gift to support those who helped others during the 9/11 attacks. He is by far a great New Yorker and I would call him a citizen of the world. The Forbes did rank you as one of the richest people and reported that you have given away about 40 percent of your net worth so far to charity. He contributed $26 million to help defeat George Bush and that's really just the beginning of his political involvement and one of the things about the last the last two panelists in particular were cited last year by three of our panelists as people they would most want to see up here at the next conference. We had Peter Lewis, Sheila Johnson and Louis Coleman. All said that we should be sure to have George Soros and Aggie Gund this year. So I am delighted that both of them were able to join us. And one of the things that I think that our panel admired last year is the way George that you also changed the thinking that its not just about accumulating wealth, but what we need to admire is people who give back and give generously and you have done that enormously. The last but certainly not the least, the last panelist is Aggie Gund or Agnes Gund. You can't really think about arts funding or the arts and culture in the city without thinking about Aggie Gund. I do love this quote. I am going to read that came out in 19 it was the 1999 listing in Forbes and Agnes Gund's family's net-worth is listed at $1.7 billions and Aggie responded beautifully I am well. Well, I am well under a billionaire. I am simply a multimillionaire, not a billionaire in anyway. So I liked that honesty and candor and actually had a chance to meet Aggie not through collecting art but at a event she held on LGBT Rights, a lesbian gay rights in her apartment in 1994 and I am delighted that she joined us tonight. So to get us started, I want this to be a really candid conversation. So my first question for the panel is, how much did you give away last year? Aggie you are lucky. Well, see I am the least rich of anybody and in fact I the other day when this article came out about calling me wealthy, my children called up and said, "Mom, you said, you aren't wealthy and I said, I am not" and that's the sad thing to have that article. That was what made me maddest about the article that it says that. The one thing I will say is that I do give according to my lawyer, probably more of my income than most people because I think I give really close to, almost close to two-thirds of my income away a year. So that is a lot. I do give a big percentage of it. But compared to these people I would hate to make, it would sound like nothing. Oh you could give us - last year, every single panelist gave us a number. You can give us a number. Don't feel pressured. I am not going to give them one. I mean, look to compared to my next door neighbor who I admire greatly and especially for his political views and political support and I have been lucky enough to be, joined him for some of the meetings he has had at his house, on the political aspect of this country. I only gave you know, 10.5 million away last year which is very small. But for me its much more than my income and so very little part, I don't my income is really not that much. I don't get that much a year. That's spectacular, George. Actually I think giving away two-thirds is really very admirable, because you can only deduct one-half. So it means that obviously you have made political donations which are tax not taxed up. Also I think you deserve really appreciation. I basically also I really don't quite qualify as an individual philanthropist, because I have a large foundation that I support and that foundation has a budget, annual budget of about $400 million. All right. So that that's your foundation? That's my foundation. That's why I am so embarrassed. We shouldn't be $10.5 million is nothing to be embarrassed about. Evelyn? Well Aggie, I am with you, I think I am going to leave, because I just looked at Leonard, and I said, I don't how much we gave away. But in my case, I think, there are several opportunities for me to help. And one is that we also have setup a foundation and it's under our name and we have given, I think, last year we gave away about $7 or $8 millions and that to a variety of different charities and I also founded a foundation, a separate 501C3 for which I actually raise money, and so I wear both hats. When you said no one was here from a foundation, who is professional in a way, I've almost become partially professional because last year we raised $27 million for the Breast Cancer Research Foundation and Aggie, and you were very generous to us. So I thank Aggie because she gave, part of what she gave away was, as well, to the Breast Cancer Research Foundation. There may be some soliciting going on at the state,- Yeah but no one is safe from me. When some one sees me they run. As long as they get a free lipstick with that it's fine. And, altogether since the foundation began in 1993, we've raised over $160 million and I think that that's, you know, something about which I am very proud for my staff. All right, Buddy the press is on you. I feel like some of my worst fears have been confirmed. Well Well you see no one ever comes back on this panel. We don't want - no one ever returns. When you and our mutual friend Darren Walker of the Rockefeller Foundation invited me to join this panel, one thing I knew would be the case is that I would be the small fish on the stage. But worse than that, I always at least thought to myself, "Well maybe I am not as big but I try harder, I give a much larger percentage." But having heard the wonderful news that we heard tonight, I'd say, I don't even win in that category. As you know a few years ago, on the anniversary of Brown versus Board of Education, in the Landmark US Supreme Court decision, that did away with separate, but equal. We launched myself, personally my company and the foundation that I set up, we launched an initiative to donate $50 million to different individuals and organizations working to promote the broad goals of that decision. And that's public information, and that's about all you'll get from me. Again maybe you each of you share with us our gift you gave recently. I mean, George you you were just listed in the paper yesterday in terms of this gift for the 9/11 Fund. May be you could talk about that or the others something that have given very recently. That just something that moved you and made a decision to make a particular gift. Well, that that I that I think is a very good cause because I mean, those people really sacrifice their health for for us. And - and they are not properly looked after and the hospitals are supporting them. And I think to, to help them, is a good cause. So, I am very happy to have matched the New York Times own contribution. But it's actually not really typical of my giving because my giving is much more inspired by a political philosophy, it's a open society. And so it's, that the most of my spending tends to be more controversial than that. Then any of the other panels have a gift they made recently. The last two, three, four months, that perhaps was a little different our new field Aggie. Well, I've given to a group that I've become more and more interested in the last couple of years and I think our Governor is very interested in this matter too. And that's sanctuary for families with long with two other organizations. The quality now in Coalition Against Trafficking in Women has formed a group that is working hard to try to stop trafficking in New York State and he, the Governor, is very interested in this and I hope that this will lead to some work on it. I think you all may know that it's become a terrible problem. Its not only sexual trafficking, it's trafficking in all forms that is taking place and it's just gotten worse and it really does apply to not just women but to all kinds of individuals. So that's something that, I think, I become more interested in seeing trying to stop. I think, one of the things I've learned is that Sweden has been the most successful of any country because they stopped trying to arrest the prostitutes and people like that and really trying to go after the people that perpetuate this, the people that bring traffic and the people that people bring the over and that are the ones that back the women and that they found that they really stopped the progress of this a lot in Sweden. So maybe we can start to do that too and that ended it more or put some stop on it or some you know way to stop it. Buddy, Evelyn something you have done recently, you want to share? Well, every week I get a folder from the people who help us with our finances and its my black folder and the black folder has in it a pile of requests and one has to consider the opportunities of giving based on so many different criteria. For example if, for example, some one has been very helpful to me for the Breast Cancer Research Foundation or for the Central Park Conservancy which is also one of my great interests or whatever you know, my husband Leonard is the Chairman of the Whitney Museum and of course there are many people who have been very, very helpful to him. If one of them asks me and asks him to give a contribution to their favorite of an important charity, of course, we do reciprocate because that's the nature of giving, to help your friends if they help you. And so there is a pile this big and every week we go through this and we get a running total of how much money is available in the Foundation and then every week its, you know, we deduct what we've given away so we know by the end of the year how much money is left and how much money we can give without going into next years budget. So it's a lot. Buddy, anything you want to add? I don't have a recent past gift but I have an upcoming, upcoming gift that I that we are very excited about. Every year as part of our initiative we announce fellows named after my father, the Alphonse Fletcher Senior Fellowship and we have got a bunch of applications and a great committee including Thelma Golden who is here today, the Director the Studio Museum at Harlem, that's reviewing those applications and in the next couple of months will announce the 2007 class of Fletcher fellows. That's great. Great, let me ask each of you questions. Is an organizations, there must be one, so what did I think for a moment, that you stopped funding, that you simply either became disenchanted with, think they no longer need the funds but talk about it because our students are going to be dealing with this where you've ceased funding something, can you talk about that experience? Who wants to go first? I can go first if you like. I funded an organization and I don't want to name them. No, no no, I really would not do that. But when I looked on their financials which are all available to all of us and I saw that they had a carryover of $27 million that was not being spent and that they had a huge overhead. I felt that it wasn't justified based on the budget of the number of employees that they had, based on the kind of support that they get, grass root support that they get elsewhere. So I minimized and started weaning the contributions from this organization. I think, that its important to see the ratio of spending to the budget and to, you know, Charity Navigator is a very good organization that you can access on the Internet so that you can see the overhead and ratio of overhead to income and you have several other ranking organizations on the Internet that you can use to help you decide if that's what you want to do, there are some people who have to have a certain amount of capital - - in order to go forward the following year but my theory is that when you are working on research and its health related you want to spend every penny you can now for researchers especially at a time when the Federal government is reducing its budget drastically whereas a researcher, 15 years ago had a 30 percent chance of getting money from the national cancer institute today its six percent. Okay, let me just anybody else sort of ceased giving an organization can share with us that process and your thinking. Well, I agree with that one but but I also think sometimes after just a number of years and I find it I if I get requests of maybe five, six, eight requests from a place that you hear I just get angry at the the group. I think that's too many requests. I think if people call me up and bug me too much I just really get mad at them so I tend to I tend to sort of use that as a criteria for being bugged too much. And so I I don't I don't very often that gets set in the back of my head and it influences. Because you do get asked I mean you just get asked for too much from I mean you have to draw the line somewhere you can't say always yes. Well if we stop funding lots of organizations I hesitate to name them because many of them are very good organizations just you know, we can't fund them forever but one of the very interesting case is he Central European University its the university which I have funded and I endowed it and now they have to be on their own because if I just kept on funding them your would never be able to become an independent university and get their own funding. This way I have endowed them pretty generously but now they have to stand up on their own feet. I don't have I don't have any example of a charity that we have stopped funding but I will share an insight that's very personal if you can keep a secret, (indiscernible) that I found somewhat annoying about more than one organization. There I guess for some reason its easy for some organizations to say well you are black so you and other black should be giving more to this organization and I would like to give more and I'm sure other people would too but I found that approach of saying this organization helps your people and you should give more a bit of a crossing bounds let's say and so I will tell you my response to those those groups and I'm going to borrow part of Mrs. Lauder's line from earlier. I mentioned to them that I would love to contribute more these are groups doing great work too that I would like to contribute more but I also mentioned to them that the the board members who push this point I mentioned to them that they should consider the people with whom they do business who they might normally call on to make gives and I ask them for example how many minority money managers or lawyers or accountants they work with because often when one looks to raise money for organization you turn to the people who provides services to you or your company and you call on them to support and that's a very healthy process I think for those board members and for me frankly to have gone through that. So that's the story I will share on that front. Let me ask all the panelists then in terms of issues around religion, gender, race, sexual orientation each of you I'm sure has approached as buddy talked about can you talk about how you feel about those kind of requests that have to do more with your kind of your who you are as a person for a -? Can I tell you a funny story? A long time ago there was a as a matter of fact a friend of mine who is in the room right now had gotten Lauder and me interested in the gun control organization and we had been giving personally to this gun control organization and one year by mistake it was they sent the check from the EstÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â©e Lauder Companies. We got letters from all over the country saying we are going to return our products to the counter we really don't want to you have denied us the opportunity the right to carry arms and I wrote back to every single one of these people saying that's not true that in fact I mean this is paraphrasing and in fact what we are trying to do is to make sure that there is no murder like the John Lennon murder which was in the a gun in the hands of someone who was mentally unstable and that there should be some controls on who can be licensed to carry a gun and so forth and so on. And the whole thing did go away. But there that is a backlash sometimes when somebody does something like that and you get responses from people that are shocking. Well I think for many years I was really quite upset about how few people would stand up and serve on committees to raise money for AIDS and such and I really admired some of the men that were able to be heads of committees because I heard from a couple of men that they wouldn't do that because they didn't want to be perceived as gay. I said, how how can you think that that would be what would happen to you. And they said, well, you can be head of committees and you can serve on committees because people aren't going to think you are gay. I said, you don't think they are going to think I am a lesbian, why would they think I am oh well, lesbians don't have anything to do with this. Its only gay men and I thought oh, I they obviously have the whole thing topsy-turvy. I mean they they didn't really have any understanding of of the whole thing. So I there were some men that I really think were really terrific and one of them it was Don Merin, I remember Don Merin very early on chaired a committee that was raising money for AIDS and I was really very impressed with that. I thought it was terrific that he was willing to come out there and say, this is what I believe in and this is right and that was because he was one of the few. There were very few people that at that point and that ladies would do that. I mean it's hard to believe that now. But that was . It's the same thing with the (indiscernible) and it is the same thing with the (indiscernible) and abortion. And I had the I was once the Webster (inaudible) and Webster. I had the I did a campaign or supported the campaign where I was afraid to put my name behind this campaign which was a radio, TV and ad campaign because I was scared that people would come and Possibly do damage to the apartment building and or to my kids and stuff and that that's a frightening thing to have happen in this country. Its obviously wrong to be much more frightening for many people and that's what you are trying to avoid what your support of trying to get was not to get Bush in office I think because I think that taking away freedom of everybody's freedom to do that to do and support what they think is right is a very you know, bad thing, because I think people shouldn't be afraid to support the right to abortion and you know so I think that -. I was just going to start to talk about politics but George do you want anything on giving that has I mean, a lot of giving's in Eastern Europe that you are so where are you from, so how - is that been a large factor, motivator in terms of background or having to do more with the NIS maybe you can just talk about that for a while? No about the support of oppressed, disadvantaged minorities is sort of the core mission for us, so a lot of our spending is it falls into that category, its not you know it can - definitely gays, lesbians, actually women. We have a major women's program in the world and and then Roma which is a minority in the area where we have foundations, sort of the worst case of ethnic exclusion and that's a major area of funding. You have all a few of you have talked about it and you all give generously - politically, can you talk about the decision making between politics and non profits or charities and in terms of how you think like giving money away? Well, one thing I think its there its often they cross both ways, there can be a charity and political, like planned parenthood has sections of it which our political and you give the money and you have to give it under a political auspices and then part of it you can give which funds, charity 503C everyone see 501C3 you can do both sides of that with something like planned parenthood because they have a political advocacy aspect and they have also a charitable one, so you can you can do both but I think giving to politics, well, why should talk in front of somebody like George Soros who have done so much, but I I really found that I have over given to politics I think but - this year my daughter had a baby on November 6th so I couldn't vote but I must say I thought that her having the baby was why we did so well in the election but anyway . It was one of the nicest days for my husband and I to really feel we both said we felt like we had been in a position where we had finally won something so many years our votes had really counted or you know made a difference and wasn't it nice? Well, I just want to emphasize that whatever political giving I give is not through the foundation - but it has to be personal and and takes it up takes it up to both and I mean basically I I consider those sort of just twice as expensive as as philanthropy that's deductible but certainly in 2004 I thought it was money better spent on that actually. Uh-huh. And one of the people I would like to mention that is a great giver of political funds or gets me into real trouble with that is Louis Coleman, Louis is always calling me with some kind of really wonderful idea he has for giving to some fund or some political thing and you know you cant give into Louis Coleman he just I mean cannot give into Louis Coleman, he is he is so galling in the way he sells his you know most recent idea or somebody else's recent idea that he has become convinced of and I just think that's what I have learnt the most from is is to listen to people that really know about what they are talking about and one of the nice things this time was to have the states that you wanted to give money to to have almost all of them won by the people that you gave the money to, that was really an exciting part because they were very tight races and they were races that where if you help the candidate that you wanted to it really made a difference this time. Right. I am glad you mentioned Louis Coleman because he really is a wonderful philanthropist. Well, and I have to be very frank . Compared to the my other colleagues on the panel we have a product if not 26 lines of products and so we have had a policy of that we have to be very sensitive to our business and so the personal giving that Leonard and I do is very, very personal and we divorced that from our product because we don't want to have a backlash or any impact on the various lines that we sell and so I have kept a very low profile even though I am active and I donate, and I do what I can. But I don't like to talk about, and I never will discuss in the press which candidate I would support and for what reasons. I find that in this particular instance, in this particular business, it's not something that is a wise thing to do. And you'll notice that you won't see that very often and almost any company that is selling a product or in any retail establishment. Uh-huh. Buddy, how do you think of how do you look at political giving verses say charitable giving I I would say that the the well I'm increasingly seeing the seeing the importance of political giving historically I have to tried to emphasis philanthropy giving much - much more than political giving. That - those are reasons I will have talk about offstage. But, the I'll I'll talk about why I am increasingly paying attention to political giving. I think regardless of how much the four of us and many other philanthropists would like to contribute to making the world a better place. When you observe when you study carefully the the power of governments over individuals and foundations, it's absolutely remarkable. And seeing that leverage defect, let's call it of having an influence over who is making those decisions in government really does seem to be a a something that I should spend a little more time thinking about. Let me ask each of you a little bit if we move on to Board of Directors. Many of you, probably all of you serve on multiple boards. Can you talk to us a little bit about that experiences, there are particular board you are on that you think is really well well run, that you think is one of the better boards you are on and do you know of the name, I know now this group is going to be very reticent to say - but is there one particularly that very strong, its really well managed, that really takes a strong hand in in running that organization? I sit on the Board of Overseers at a Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center. And every member of the board is a very valuable member very engaged. The President of the Board is Sandy Warner and he also invites every member of the board to have lunch with four physicians at least two or three times a year. We I had one lunch today actually which I was invited to which I was invited and we were able to learn a lot about the research that was going on, the intimacy of having been with these physicians was a very motivating to help support them. And as a result, the board is either gives a tremendous amount of time or and they also give tremendous amounts of of money and it's a well run board. In the in the case of the foundation that I started, the Breast Cancer Research Foundation, every year we go through the names of all the people who are on our advisory board and if there are people who show less interest, we ask them if they are still interested in staying on board and if they are, then they need to be more active. And if they aren't, then we ask them we thank them, and we tell them that their time with us was very valuable and then we replace them with someone who is really a lot more engaged. And . So if they get a thank you they know their time is up? Yeah yeah. Buddy, particular the board you are on that you would admire? Well. I was on the Board of the New School for a while years ago. Yes. And I would have to say that, that's a pretty good board. I I felt like that - - I felt like I should have been paying tuition frankly with people like Mr. Arnhold and Mr. Everest that were running the Investment Committee Meetings. So that's certainly a great organization. But I would actually point out a group that whose boards I on whose board I don't sit, the group led by your Alumni's Lorie Slutsky class of 77 in your community trust which has been a great partner to a lot of the a portion of the philanthropy that that we have done. And so those are those are two two good organizations for you. Aggie, George wanted to just jump in? Well, actually I sit on very few boards that, other than our own, we have a number of boards that I attend but they are all internal. The one that comes to mind, is the international crisis group where we contribute originally one third of their budget and I am on that board and it's very rewarding because I learn a lot about what goes on in the world and it's a very active and strong board. So its and that's the reason I am on it because I actually get more out of it way. I don't know quite what to say because it would sound funny if I talked about boards as opposed to other boards but I think one of the things that mama's board has done, that I think is good is not exactly on the board but the committee structure I think has been very good. We the committees work hard and they do a lot more than the board does exactly. I mean, the board is really a place where you get information, which you don't talk much but the committee should talk a lot and you do, do a lot of a lot to learn about the curatives to learn about the actual, what happens in the departments and I think that, I think, it's a very good part of that board because you get to know the institution and I think where the committee structure works on boards that those are the best boards, if - if you have that kind of a set up and I think that's what I like best to serve on. I like the committees better than I do actually Full board. Have any of you have an experience, last year we had Peter Louis who has had plenty of run ins with the boards he has been on and as certainly like a stir of trouble. Have you have any of you been involved with an organization as a board member where you have had to replace the senior management. Okay, you talk a little about that. Peter is wonderful. You mean the president of the board, the hired president? Yeah. I was on a board once where I didn't want to hire. There were three people on this board, it was a school board and we were hiring a new headmaster and I was in very, very good company, I have to say because Vartan Gregorian, Rupert Murdoch and I each agreed that we didn't like this candidate You hired him? We hire him and of course we changed at the end. We made, let the minutes read that it was a unanimous hire and then, of course, each of us was vindicated because shortly after the school year began subsequently there were problems and we had to form a little committee to supervise the new headmaster and of course that didn't work out because you can't do that, you can't change some one and the big problem was he didn't like children. How long did he last? A year. A year, of course all right well - you know, so, I mean, these things happen and I thought it was and I was on another board somewhere else where everyone was so mean spirited, after two meetings I resigned immediately. Well, I I was on the Getty board and every body I think knows the story of that but I was my term was up after Barry left but I did get appointed to, even though my term was up till the selection committee for the now had Jim Wood. So I was pleased to be able to serve on that selection committee again, so.